State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

[MipMipMip]

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

I still do not know how you'd know about being deleted. So how would you know if you are a repeat offender?

Fabulous post Red

This has been fascinating. I haven't changed my views but it's been really interesting to see such a variety of opinions. We will never all agree, which means we will never all be happy, but all of these views have good solid reasons behind them. There is no unreasonable bias. I hope people can see that and that it helps non posters feel more comfortable on the board and engaging.

A couple of people have been suspicious of my motives in starting this thread. Which is entirely understandable in the circumstances. The reasoning behind it is innocent and just as I explained in my first post. However, if people are concerned I am happy to PM my Twitter handle to one of the long time posters like Datum or Lang so they can check me out and report back.

I still do not know how you'd know about being deleted.

Is there a way to know this other than endlessly going back through threads in which you've posted?

I make a distinction between transexuals, i.e people with dysphoria, and people who are quite happy with their sexed bodies but claim to be trans. I have compassion towards the former, I see the latter as having a belief system I don't happen to share.

I welcome gender non-conformity. Nobody should feel obliged to dress and behave in a certain way just because they were born with a particular set of reproductive organs.

I don't see that this new trans movement is about pushing boundaries and breaking gender stereotypes, it seems very regressive and conformist. The implication of this gender identity ideology is that most women are programmed to behave and think in a specific way, a way that is completely distinct from the way men think and behave. This isn't progressive thinking, this is the same old shit women have been battling against for centuries. It wasn't so very long ago that women who were skilled mathematicians or scientists were told they'd got a 'mans brain'. And people do still believe that men have brains like a set of boxes, and women have brains like spaghetti.

The belief that men and women have different brains, different ways of thinking, different natures and identities has been around for thousands of years and it has always been used against women to stop us being equal participants in all areas of life. Trans ideology has made sexism socially acceptable again.

Why does handwashing need to be sex segregated? Never quite understood that

I know the thread has moved on, but I wanted to add my own position on trans issues/self ID.

My position is that:

1. Sex change is impossible.

2. It is unethical to pretend to be something you are not and to pass among others of that kind as though you are one of them and to attempt to deceive them, especially if they are a disadvantaged group and you are taking or using specific facilities intended for them (the only exception to this is in conditions of structural inequality where your group is barred from power e.g.- for a serf to scrub up and pretend to be a Lord to avoid oppression).

3. It is disrespectful and taking liberties to ask people to pretend to think or see something they do not think or see.

4. It is authoritarian and oppressive to seek to compel people to pretend to think or see something they do not think or see. It can cause extreme mental distress and should be recognised as a form of domination, control and bullying.

5. All people who collude with deception are morally culpable.

6. Body dysphoria is a problem of the mind, not the body.

7. Unnecessary medical intervention and body morphication of healthy/normal bodies is unethical, however if adults want cosmetic surgery/ medical intervention, etc I wouldn't try to stop it, but there should be some consideration of mental health of the patient (ie- a psychotic person shouldn't be offered surgery).

8. Unnecessary medical intervention and body morphication upon healthy/normal children is extremely unethical and should be illegal.

9. It is unethical for politicians to give hard-won resources from one disadvantaged group to another eg- women fought for their spaces, disabled people fought for theirs. Any new groups who need specific facilities need to fight and win theirs too.

10. Laws must be based in truth not lies and the GRA is unethical as it allows people to falsify legal documents (ie- birth certificate).

11. Societies should progress in such a way to peacefully thrive while allowing truth, diversity, equality, freedom and justice to exist. This means that authoritarianism cannot persist.

Wavey wave to the twitter crew.

In case you wish to take offence - the Rainbow Fairies in my current username refers to the well known series of a ridiculous number of kids' books about an army of fairies which only ever have one bloody plot among the 9 bajillion books of them and which numerous parents have been forced to endure trudges through Twatface the Toenail Fairy or whatever else over the years.

Just clarifying that for your screenshots in case you wish to claim it's some statement about how everyone's lost the fucking plot completely with all of this.

I think notions of gender are backward and harmful to both females and males. I am open mouthed to see them reinvented as progressive, let alone enshrined in law. It has made me realise human beings are not nearly as smart as we think we are.

I support anyone's right to believe whatever they want and to live however they want, as long as it doesn't impinge on anyone else's rights. I am concerned about the privacy, safety and dignity of women and girls, and about crime and health statistics, employment legislation and women's sport. I am shocked at how women are being vilified and silenced for trying to discuss how a change in law might affect them.

I might have fewer concerns were it not for male violence and the craven failure of decent males to acknowledge or take responsibility for it.

I find it hard to state my views because my views are still half formed, despite spending hours and hours thinking about all this.

I differ from most feminists posting on this board on gender - I agree that it's a social construct, but I've seen some women say that gender doesn't exist or that it's some kind of imaginary bullshit, and that's not how I view it. I think it's real and tangible and quite powerful. Like some others here, I'd like to abolish gender stereotypes and I'm not sure that some of the trans activists on twitter share this political goal. Many trans people in my everyday life hold views that I find more palatable.

I'm happy to say that trans women are women, because I don't think of biology as a set of facts that can define 'woman' but I can't reject biology as meaningless. However, this means I'm taking a position where 'woman' is fluid and difficult to define. I'm ok with that; I know others want clear definitions.

But then I read some stuff on the internet written by trans women and I feel like I need a translator. I simply don't understand what they mean. And I think this is because of my belief that gender is a social construct: there are some women who don't 'sound' like women, and I unconsciously recategorise them in my mind. Because by not caring about women's concerns they 'sound' like men. I desperately want to be inclusive and intersectional and kind and respectful but I'm not actually willing to put aside my concerns about safety and justice without real answers to my questions. #nodebate is of course unacceptable.

So I'm still in an incoherent place. I want to accept trans women as women but I have many questions and hardly any answers.

CardsforKittens I can understand all of that. It's a hard is due to have one view on because there will always be someone it's bad for

Widow there are a few reasons I can think of for sex segregated washing:

Women often want somewhere to escape a man. We've seen it a few times on these boards "he wouldn't leave me alone until I went in to the toilets". Likewise if bothered women will often ask for support from someone in there.

Women (and I'm sure men) will adjust clothing make up etc in front of mirrors. They may not feel comfortable in front of men (I wouldn't if I'm pulling my boobs about!).

Women may well have period blood that needs removing. If they have leaked it's not unknown for them to take off a skirt/trousers to wash it. I doubt many would be comfortable or feel safe standing in just knickers in front of a man.

Given the mature attitude to periods some men have asking to borrow a tampon or get one out of the machine while you're stuck in a cubicle could be very uncomfortable. Particularly if you are a teenager and new to periods.

It makes it harder for a man to push you into a small, hard to escape cubicle to attack you. You have a better chance if you have more room and others can come in and intervene. If men are expected in there you are not automatically defensive on seeing them.

I'm sure there are many more reasons but there's a starting point. However I'm derailing my own thread as it's not meant to be discussions so I'll shut up now.

"Because by not caring about women's concerns they 'sound' like men. I desperately want to be inclusive and intersectional and kind and respectful"

That about sums it all up Mip

So I'm still in an incoherent place. I want to accept trans women as women but I have many questions and hardly any answers.

I think this is a common position. The liberal part of us all want people to live as the want and to express themselves in a way that makes them happy and confident. And if we all just compromised a little, life would be better for all.

Just ask yourself who is compromising and what they are compromising.

I forgot:

13. It is extremely unethical to tell children lies about sex and lead them to believe that sex doesn't matter or that they can change sex, especially if it leads them to fixate on this mythical future where they can be 'transformed' and that this extreme, harmful, life-changing medical intervention they fully don't understand the consequences of, is their destiny.

14. It is harmful to promote sex stereotypes where people (including children) can start to believe that their body is wrong and needs changing, rather than the stereotypes are wrong and need smashing.

Widow doesn't care about women so you're wasting your breath.

If nothing else it was an interesting intellectual exercise. I'm so used to things being as they are that sometimes it's a good idea to have a think about why.

I wish there was no need for sex segregation. Even if men did not abuse, rape and kill us in our thousands, I think I would still want sex segregation anyway just due to privacy reasons. There are 2 types of bodies, and in situations where we will be naked and such, it makes sense to separate the two groups accordingly. While we have sex segregation, it makes no sense at all to segregate by anything but sex, surely this is bloody obvious?!

I do not think penises should be in womens refuges, or prisons.

Sport should remain sex segregated.

I disagree 100% with puberty blockers for 'gender questioning children'. I was one of these kids, and am now a perfectly happy female person. I had what I would think would be termed extreme sex dysphoria when I was a teen. I hated the attention my body (and especially my large tits) brought me, and at one stage attempted to mutilate myself to stop this attention. I still have scars on my breasts from seriously trying to cut them off. I would definitely have been put on blockers, and sterilized. I do not think hating puberty is a 'trans thing', I think most kids feel that way and would do pretty much anything to avoid it. Though I am sure that going to the extremes I did is not that common.

I also make the distinction between transsexual people and transvestites, and 'transgender'. I think TRAs do so much harm to transsexual people, along with women and children too.

Personally I am quite happy for post op trans people to use the opposite sex areas. However I also realise that many women are not OK with this. Its a shame that 'transgender' people and TRAs have ruined the honour system that we had going on. As until fairly recently I know noone who had an issue with transwomen using female changing rooms and such.

I also think if men have an issue with female people using their areas, its up to them to speak up. I do not believe that feminists need to fight everyones battles for them. And also, female people on the whole are not a danger to male people. Its just not the same.

I think many 'transgender' people and TARs are hugely homophobic, and especially lesbophobic. I think 'transing' kids early is also homophobia, given most gender non-conforming kids are simply gay as adults, where if shoved onto blockers near 100% go onto transition.

I also think that come 10 years time or so..there will be endless lawsuits from children who should have been protected by those around them.

I have a transsexual family member who agrees with everything I say on this topic too. Infact it was her who 'peaked' me properly.

I have probably missed some stuff out here, but am waiting for my screenshot too

Oh I also think gender is a load of bollocks and people should be free to wear whatever they want and such without prejudice. Especially children. I hate how everything is 'gendered' these days, even to the point of having pink and bluer kinder eggs for fucks sake..just move away from the stereotypes and let people be people.

I see my post has made it on Twitter. No idea why and to be honest reading the majority of the other posts, probably everyone's post made it..

I actually see some consensus in the posts here. Some are harder than others, but overall there's a definite line there TRAs crossed.

Now I wonder if this one will end up on twitter as well...

I believe, as do most people I know, that Trans can be either,

a mental illness like anorexia, a sexual fetish, or a trend.

There is no such thing as "born in the wrong body",

I believe that I have the right to hold those views, it doesn't mean that I hate trans people.

People can not change their sex; sex is genetics and chromosomes and natal genitalia.
Penises should not be in female spaces.
A transsexual who has undergone "meaningful transition" including surgery can access female spaces, on a pragmatic basis. This convention has been broken by tra's and shouldn't need 'policing' if people respect women's privacy and are able to accept gnc- i.e. so TIM can use the men's.
Children should be allowed to be gnc and, under no circs, should any medical or consistent social transition take place- again, if there's a campaign to be fought, it's about accepting gender non conformity.
Safeguarding isn't trumped by gender non conformity.
No one has the right to demand sex from another regardless of gender id.

My post on page 1 has been deleted.

@MNHQ

Please can you amend your Talk Guidelines to include the following:

1. A commitment to empirically verifiable biological science that correctly recognises that the sole reason males and females, men and women, exist is by virtue of the fact that we reproduce sexually and that any definition of male or female, man or woman, must be understandable in light of this, is unacceptable.

1. It is unsayble to state that there is no such thing as trans. That it is not real and that it is delusional thinking.

1. It is unsayable to state that a man, no matter what he does to himself or believes about himself can never, ever become a woman.

1. It is unsayable to refer to the documented, publicly accessible examples evidencing AGP as the motivation for 'transition'.

1. Yet, to state the contrary positions, and to deny logical, reality and biological science, is perfectly acceptable and is a position that is welcome on MN,

State @MNHQ and stop mucking everyone about.

bother, I thought we'd made it this far with no deletions.

What a bore....