State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

[MipMipMip]

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

Hi MRA did you answer the OP on the thread because I would actually be interested in you "stating your position on trans/self-id issues" in a self-contained post?

You are not trying to reason with them. Nor should you try.

That's the point...

DH doesn't quite get the "encourage people to show everyone who they are" aspect, and is worried that one of the nutcases will show up on our doorstep with a gun.

Well this might sound bizarre as I had a friend who thought he was trans whom I supported throughout his experience he decided he wasn’t eventually but I saw how confused and conflicted he was. So I have sympathy for trans people.

However I do accept what women’s refuges and bathrooms are for, and why it’s imperative women feel safe in them, and I’m cautious about throwing them under the bus just to appease a bunch of people who may ultimately change their mind anyway.

My biggest problem is what people are proposing to do with children, as it seems inadvisable in the extreme to transition children willy nilly when there simply isn’t enough science to justify the position. I’m also particularly scathing about non-trans people who co-opt this struggle be right on and current. After all they won’t personally have to live the potential consequences.

Is that what you wanted or can I clarify further?

AAK
"DH doesn't quite get the "encourage people to show everyone who they are" aspect, and is worried that one of the nutcases will show up on our doorstep with a gun."

After showing DH the Julie Bindel video of the Bristol meeting where those cowardly fucks were preventing women from entering a oublic meeting, and the pics of the baseball bats etc at the San Fran Library 'exhibition', my DH would now welcome them coming for us. He is seething that these fuckers threaten women. And also concerned. I was recently at a private feminist meeting about this and he was very concerned about my safety. He has always had a thing about men who bully women. But he is totally shocked that women are being threatened by so called 'progressives'

Mine almost got punched by a very large TIM a while back for muttering about the TIM bullying women (a female cashier) under his breath. So even if I stayed out of it completely, TRAs are still a threat to him (and to all of us, they just usually prefer to pick on women because we're less likely to hit them back).

Also, the class aspect of this can be useful for those whose partners are still stuck in the waffly "but I just want to be nice to people" headspace. A lot of TRAs bully working class people in service jobs. Usually those people are women, but there's class as well as sex stuff going on in those scenarios. If your partner is a lefty that's one possible angle that might work to get them to see why the behavior of TRAs is a problem.

It took some time for my DH to understand the issues and we had a few rows about it over the last couple of years. But when you hit that peak, there's no going back. Like most people, he keeps hitting peak again and again now.

It's less Kilimanjaro and more Himalayas - always another peak on the horizon.

I do wonder how it will all pan out. Because normally NPDs have a 'this town aint big enough for both of us' thing when they spot another one of their kind and seek to destroy them or move them on from their patch or they develop an all-consuming mad whirlwind 'romance' if you can call it that with them- but eventually they start getting scared of each-other, because they both know what the other can do, so they feel they need to get in first before they are themselves destroyed.

How much of the world will be razed to the ground before they turn against eachother?

I am a scientist (retired), I have always been GNC, a lifelong feminist who taught Women's studies in the 80's. I still managed to marry and have children because, you know, I didn't really hate men. Just patriarchy. Females are oppressed on the basis of our biology.

I think the push towards self ID is the biggest threat to women's safety in my lifetime.
I think ROGD is a social contagion as damaging to girls as Anorexia
I think children should be allowed to grow up expressing their individual personalities without these likes, desires, preferences being seen as gendered. Gender is a social construct.

RedToothBrush

I think we are agreed that we have postmodern individualism which has combined with authoritarian policing of dissent. Which suits a lot of disparate interests, all of which have vested interests in undermining protections for children and women.

How do we begin to counter that?

Fall back to the significance of the individual vs the group. Basic Classic English Liberalism! The state has no fucking business in dictating what words we use or who we choose to associate with.

If all else fails point to the gun I the room. It’s a simple rhetorical trick that works with people who haven’t really understood what’s at stake.

I think that this heavy opposition of self-identification is an utterly irrational overreaction that qualifies as scaremongering.

Self-identification is a good thing. Gender is a social construct, so separating it from our body parts is a step towards equality.

Opponents of self-id often say that they want 'women's voices' to be heard. My experience, as a woman with womb and ovaries and all that stuff, is that they only want the voices of those who agree with them to be heard.
I have been met with aggression and ridicule when stating that I am in favour of self identification, but more importantly, the opponents make it almost impossible for me to discuss the matter. They are 'offended' when I call myself, or them, a cis-woman. I use this vocabulary because it expresses my view that transwomen and ciswomen are both women, but opponents of self identification do not want to hear my female voice unless I adopt their exclusionary language.

Look I’m not going to piss on you and tell you it’s raining

If it was my post that you were replying to there TEMRA sorry, it wasn't critical or aimed at you, and your posts are not at all the 'ooh look it's raining' type. My post was just the thoughts your previous post sparked. It linked up things I'd seen over the last few days.

Self IDing as what?

FWIW I think most men don’t really care about the trans thing, I think since gay men have become a more visible and vibrant part of the cultural conversation there hasn’t been an avalanche of gay men propositioning straight men all over the place (barring the odd #metoo moment), so I do t think we men have much to fear from the trans agenda.

However it’s a completely different dynamic for women I appreciate that, and furthermore whilst I usually don’t get on with feminists this issue concerns all women wether they realise it or not, and I’m happy to mansplain my little pink balls off till people get it. It’s a bigger problem than whose on which side ideologically. Again most concerning of all is how this stands to harm children going forward.

'Scaremongering' won't wash here I'm afraid. Do better.

They are 'offended' when I call myself, or them, a cis-woman. I use this vocabulary because it expresses my view that transwomen and ciswomen are both women, but opponents of self identification do not want to hear my female voice unless I adopt their exclusionary language.

You can call yourself a "ciswoman" or a pink unicorn or whatever you want. Kindly leave other women out of it. I'm not cis, it relates to a nonsensical belief system I don't share, and I find it offensive.

Sorry, I'm not "cis", just in case it wasn't clear enough how much I reject it!

When you say 'my female voice' what do you mean by female?

I don't mind hearing your female voice. Just so you know though, being female doesn't give you permission to allow male-bodied people into female safe spaces.

Washing, Mate, you can call yourself a purple unicorn if you like, but if other women keep telling you not to call them "cis" then maybe you should listen.

If "cis" is meant to mean being OK with all of the stuff that "gender" says about women then no feminists are "cis".

I don't mind hearing your female voice. Just so you know though, being female doesn't give you permission to allow male-bodied people into female safe spaces.

YY. Some female trans allies do seem to believe that they can ignore other women's right to consent to males in their spaces.

I was at my daughters house this morning and we were chatting about this, her DH was also there. He looked up and said "don't be so bloody ridiculous MIL, men can't become women, you're just talking shite and scaremongering". I suggested he reads some of these threads and then say the same. My DD looked at him and told him it was high time he learned what was going on seeing as he has a daughter. He looked at my DGD looked at me and asked "is it really true?" I said yes, I saw the blood drain from his face.

It borders on a level of narcissism that can't even recognise other people exist, let alone matter.
I think that may be why Feminists are so often accused of denying transgender identified males the right to exist. It makes no sense till you understand it is projection, as are most of men's accusations against Feminists.

I think the men here who spend so much time repeating what men have said a kazillion times to correct women who do not view men as the main characters in the story of our lives need to take their wisdom to Datalounge. The men there have been discussing the matter for quite some time.