Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

[invisibleoldwoman]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

Re the age thing, Fionne is young (and nicer looking than Paris lees)

Agree with Pencils

So surprised the guardian posted this..

There does seem to be an awful lot of standing up to TRAs recently, our voice is getting louder and louder.

Great letter. Thank you!

R0wantrees

You are a linking Ninja! Thanks

This is a great start to the TS campaign against their sequestration by TRAs

Thank You

All these voices help to strengthen the collective NO to the TRAs

for Debbie

Delurking to send my support to Debbie, Miranda et al.

Transsexual women have always been my sisters and always will be.
My concerns are about GRA and self-ID and the increased pressure young lesbians in particular are facing to transition. Nothing else.
I despise the casual transphobia as much as I despise the ridiculous demands and threats of violence from TAs.

Thank you for stepping up all of you - it took great courage and I, for one, have got your back.

This is a TS campaign, not an add-on to the fight for women & girls' rights. TS have their own dog in this race. We will disagree on loads of stuff. Nevertheless there will be areas we can form political alliances (as opposed to being 'allies'). We can only do that if we acknowledge our differences, then agree to table them so we can fight together on specific issues.

And another YY to this.

Just - thanks. I did talk to the police, who told me there had also been a complaint about this fully biologically male person exposing themselves to a young girl in a ladies public toilet.

Great letter and I support anyone who puts their head over the parapet over this. It's more than I do most of the time.

I agree with other posters that transexuals have got their own battle to fight but I hope we can work together.

My mistake Errol, you're right, it was the times.

Here I go, taking a chance.Always impulsive.

I recently joined Mumsnet, under this, "assumed" name, because I was and am concerned about abuse I may get from various quarters.I hate dishonesty, in myself as much as in others. Ceinwen in not my name. I am, in fact, one of the signers of the Guardian letter.I'm still concerned about the backlash, but this is no longer the time to be evasive . I am Kay M. I was until the other day an increasingly uncomfortable and criticised member of the forum that Jaycee is said to have laughed at / abused someone called " Sweary". I can say that if she did, I did not see it, and could not find it, and find it hard to believe. For some while, she and I were not the " flavour of the month" on there, and she doggedly stuck to her guns, as it were, and was not in a position to make fun of anyone on Mumsnet.

That forum has a "regular posting crowd" who have views that you know about. There are a number of other people who have views similar to that of Jaycee and me, but who stay silent for fear of getting " the treatment" . It happens on social media, not just there. The site is largely well run and well intentioned, but things get heated.

What you see on Mumsnet of Jaycee is exactly as she always is. Courteous, agonizingly concerned about being fair. This is not an " assumed manner ". As far as I know it is the real Jaycee.

I've taken a chance and "outed myself" because I was very encouraged by the welcome that our little letter received from many. As a point of detail, the "signers" do not all know each other, and are not a " group".

Thanks everyone who signed the letter. I think we have the same ‘bigger picture’ at heart. And how wonderful that Guardian readers may start to question their ‘trans ally’-ness and think, wait a minute, what exactly am I supporting. Very appreciative of your words. to all.

I also agree with pencil This is a TS campaign, not an add-on to the fight for women & girls' rights. TS have their own dog in this race. We will disagree on loads of stuff. Nevertheless there will be areas we can form political alliances (as opposed to being 'allies'). We can only do that if we acknowledge our differences, then agree to table them so we can fight together on specific issues.

The letter was written by transexual males, about transexual males, with the aim to protect transexual males. The fact self id will harm women and girls too is just coincidental.

I'll say well-done too, but I see no reason to thank you

Baroque: yes.

Ceinwen

Many of us have read the Angels forum posts about Mumsnet. We know they read here a lot and as I understand it many aren't impressed by the letter. You must realise you're outing yourself to them as a signatory?

Yes; I know that I was " outing myself". They won't be surprised.The boats are burning merrily. The current crop of regular posters there assume that they have their finger on the zeitgeist, and that people who would sign that letter are " out of touch" with the modern world. We might be. But I'm convinced that we aren't.

Yes, things have changed a bit. People are more accepting, etc., in a chat over coffee sort of way. But things have not changed to the point where the average person buys the views of the more strident trans activists on " what makes a person a woman", in practical terms. They are mostly young.

I've been who I am now for nearly two decades, having been thinking about transition at certain times since the 60s . We change; it takes time. Others like me see it that way.

Doing it all in a few weeks is nonsense, even for the mental welfare of those who might do it. Never mind the fact that to expect to be accepted and acceptable to natal females overnight is a triumph of blind faith over reality. And it does, sadly, increase the chances of people abusing the system. It would not happen often ,I feel, but it might well.

@okdok have you seen this thread? It's about someone challenging the current YHA policy which allows mixed biological-sex accommodation even though it's advertised as single sex. It might be helpful to post your awful experience there too? I'm so sorry it happened to you. At least when it did you could report to police without risk of being charged with a hate crime. I think it's important to speak up because so many people say "this won't happen"..... but if the changes to the law go through there will be even fewer women willing to speak up for risk of being prosecuted - we've seen posie parker and linda bellos arrested already before there are even changes to the law.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3240061-I-have-taken-a-stand?pg=2

They know, Ereshkigal, as Kay used her user name on Angels to sign as I did, partly because we wanted them to know. None of them will be surprised by our position.

I am taking some time with the family this weekend as they are scared with the hostile reaction to this letter. But they understand this was necessary.

I thank Ceinwen for her defence.

I will also apologise, because I do understand that in trying to get our views across to the moderate people who are on Angels as we both genuinely feel this is the right approach I very likely overdid the cross referencing of what I was finding in here and by doing so in friendly terms to them might have accidentally said something inappropriate about Sweary somewhere.

I do, as you know, overwrite things and that never works well on the internet. I need to practice brevity.

It would not have been my intent to hurt her, but as it quite obviously did given the reaction it was clearly wrong. So I am truly sorry.

Will not happen again as both of us have now firmly burnt all our bridges with the trans community so we will not be welcome anywhere there and at least I am less popular somewhere else than here for a change.

We signed well aware of the consequences and because it was the right thing to do. And we are both ready to defend what we said out there and go public with our own names too if necessary.

One of the reasons I am spending time with my family this weekend is to prepare them for that possibility.

Oh look. Gaslighting. How original.

thank you for this letter.

Oh actually I guess they may have just been questioned by police rather than arrested. But I think my point stands - that is a scary thing for many people and something people will try and avoid.

SwearyG I know I said I wouldn't post here again but I've had a message this morning saying "oh look, everything you said would happen has". It's like reading a script.

The letter is in ‘most viewed’ on the Guardian website.