Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

[invisibleoldwoman]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

Sweary, whatever you think of me, that is understandable but please do not get angry at Ceinwen.

She is a really good soul. I will very happily bow out of here permanently and leave her to it if you will at least trust her and let her build bridges.

Just give her the chance and I will go for good, I promise.

But I truly am really sorry. too.

I'm disrupting the flow of this thread and haven't caught up, and actually hate to refer to LM but I really do not understand how LM can label this letter as "transmisogynistic" and "trash" and is going to "take this further" after Ann Sinnott, Lbr cncllr, shared it.

actual face.

What planet are we on???

on twitter. 🥜.

Ceinwen2/Kay

Well done on the signing the letter. I think, as I said, it is a timely intervention - the genderists have overreached and are risking a right wing backlash that will hurt transsexuals as a group and which also won't be any more pleasant for women than the genderists are. I think this is welcome and I appreciate it's hard to go against the loudest voices in the various trans lobbies.

However, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't appreciate that you've been all over this forum for a while now, giving the impression that you're not trans but a trans ally and trying to persuade the feminists here into pro-trans positions. This is quite deceitful behaviour and not the way to win allies among feminists. It's certainly not solidarity.

I also don't appreciate your gaslighting for other trans people who have behaved badly towards some FWR feminists and who still can't bring themselves to take responsibility for that or do anything but issue I'm sorry if you were offended faux apologies.

All that said, I look forward to interacting with you on this board, whether we are agreeing or disagreeing, now that we're all being honest about ourselves.

I think the right thing to do now is for me to leave Mumsnet by cancelling my account. I can see that it is the best way to try to help here as it has got too far and I will only be disruptive otherwise.

The purpose behind this letter is too important to let me get in the way.

So Ceinwen, thank you for your support and I know you will do your best.

Please the rest of you, just give her a chance. She is for real.

My apologies were not false. I realise that I have upset Sweary and I never intended to do that. So I am sorry. What else can I say? You can take that any way you want but it is sincere.

JC - I'm going to take time out from my self imposed sanction of ignoring you and tell you that firstly telling me what to do after you've taken the piss out me goes down like a bucket of cold sick, and that your pal from Angels said in their post that what we know happened didn't happen, and if it did I'm being oversensitive.

Because of course many of us didn't see you do this with our own eyes and in real time - and to more than one MNetter.

So fuck off with patronising me. And sending me messages that are clearly designed to manipulate me. You're not nearly as subtle or as clever as you think you are. And your cavalry can fuck off as well.

And the fact that these 'transsexual allies' are coming onto this thread calling each other 'she' indicates that they still feel entitled to claim womanhood.

Men in womanface, appropriating our sex. See it for what it is.

The Uterati - you've taken the words out of my mouth.

Ann Sinnott, Lbr cncllr, shared it.

Is Ann Sinnott slightly GC? I note that she was up against and beat Sarah Brown in the council elections and didn't send an acceptably gracious tweet to SB after SB grudgingly offered congrats.

TheUterati Got it in one!

I don't know why the signatories are getting thanked on here. Their motivation is the protection of themselves, not women and girls.

They can see as the transgender definition gets wider and wider and their demands get more outlandish, there will be a backlash. And the backlash will damage transexuals as well as every other trans person.

In some respects i agree with the increasing definition of trans. If someone is not harming others and wants to be part of a community, why not? It doesn't mean they have changed sex and should be entitled to trample all over women. But that equally applies to the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And I believe that many with gender dysphoria want the right to trample over women and girls.

Instead of seeing themselves as part of the problem, some TS see themselves as stuck between two extreme views. They really are not.

Oh, and my last derail, I promise. JC I know you’re still reading this. You didn’t upset me, you were obnoxious to and about me. The issue isn’t my reaction. It’s your behaviour. I wasn’t upset because you aren’t significant to me, and I expect strangers on the internet to be arseholes from time to time.

You need to own your behaviour, not your perceived outcome of it. That is what is wrong here - what you do (I was going to write did, but clearly your bad behaviour is ongoing and not in the past). You are not a victim of your behaviour. You’re the architect of it. Own it. Grow up. Fuck off. You can pick the order in which you do those things.

My heartfelt thank you to all the signatories. I applaud your bravery and compassion.

Debbie I am so sorry to hear that you are having a rough time. That is so unfair and unnecessary. I have always thought that you are level headed, empathetic and wise. Thank you always for your intelligent words.

Jaycee thank you. Your voice is so important. I have seen how you came here to talk, learn and understand. I respect that you did this very much. You have risked so very much and I admire you.

Kristina is a name I know, listen to and admire so much.

Miranda I respect and admire you incredibly so. I adore you and your no nonsense way of speaking which is refreshing, honest and often very funny. I wish we were friends in real life.

Fionne you are so strong and inspiring for someone so young. An old soul in a young body. I am in awe of you.

The other signatories I am sorry that I do not know you but thank you.

Eresh, no idea. LM is cross with her for some reason. Possibly beat a trans Lib Dem clr?

I'm sort of beyond caring tbh just can't get my head round it.

Oh LM thinks the fact AS beat a trans G person then shared this letter means the two things are linked in a bad way.

I would thank Miranda because Miranda was doing it for ages and ages and ages. The others pitched up after women (and Miranda) did the heavy digging.

Fionne you are so strong and inspiring for someone so young. An old soul in a young body. I am in awe of you

Have you seen Fionne's pet rats on her Twitter page? Completely irrelevant to the thread but they are cute as buttons.

I am embarased at some of the comments on here and I agree with PissedoffWoman

(Rats make the best pets!)

Eresh, no idea. LM is cross with her for some reason. Possibly beat a trans Lib Dem clr?

Yes, Sarah Brown as per my post.

Ah sorry Eresh. Not very with it today.

Aside mixed deeper thoughts on this letter, I feel it's really important to remember a lot of the debate around this is completely alien to the vast majority of the public. That letter is raising a number of points that many would have never considered, esp regular guardian readers who I know absorb all it has to say without question (I know many people who do.)

If I was new to all this I'd be thinking "oh - this is a different slant on what I've been reading from the likes of Paris and OJ and several other 'woke' people."

So yes well done for sticking your heads above the parapet.

Also agree with Ek! It's useful and timely but I'm not sure why women should be grateful.

This is a TS campaign, not an add-on to the fight for women & girls' rights. TS have their own dog in this race. We will disagree on loads of stuff. Nevertheless there will be areas we can form political alliances (as opposed to being 'allies'). We can only do that if we acknowledge our differences, then agree to table them so we can fight together on specific issues.

I agree. I also say well done to the signatories despite issues on this forum because it is always to be commended when a person puts themselves in firing line. I hope we can form an alliance on certain issues even if we are not in total agreement.

Ceinwen2 I noticed you had signed the letter because I have noted your posts on Angels which are often very reasonable. I can see you will be subject to considerable criticism on there so I commend you and your fellow signatories for being bold.

While I commend all signatories I will ultimately remain on the side of the women on this forum who feel they have a reason to be suspicious. I'm not going to thank you as I know this was for your own benefit too but I will acknowledge that you have put yourselves up as targets and say well done for that - for acting on your beliefs.

I know that some are feeling this is 'playing out' as suspected (whatever that is) but I do like to hear alternative views or looking at things from another's perspective - I feel it keeps MY thinking critical.

Ah sorry Eresh. Not very with it today.

You don't have to apologise, I just thought the thing about AS/SB was interesting and worthy of note