Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

[invisibleoldwoman]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

@Jayceedove having witnesses firsthand the abuse Miranda receives on a daily basis I can understand why you had to be sure before identifying yourself.

Now here's my 2ps worth. I have huge respect for Miranda, fionne and 'oldschool' transsexuals because you made a choice, you didn't make a song and dance about it with demands and pretenses and the such, you followed through on your choice and you didn't impose your presence on women with violence, arrogance and disdain. You've been respected because you respect.

The new generation of transsexuals iike Paris Lee et all have disdain not only for you, but for whom they say they strive to be. Women

Thank you to all the signatories I hope we can build a coalition.

Thank you to all the signatories. Massive respect to you all and heartfelt thanks.

I appreciate the sentiments behind the praise for this letter, and I appreciate that the signatories to it will come in for a whole load of abuse from the usual quarters.

BUT. The signatories to the letter are still men. That they have gone to greater lengths to change their appearance and presentation does not detract from the fact that they are still men and that as such they are STILL not entitled to women's spaces, women's opportunities, or the language used to refer to women, women's bodies and their experience of those bodies. They. Are. Still. Men.

Further, could you imagine a letter from a group of women referring to male sexual fetishism as a motivating force for men to declare themselves to be women being published in the Graun? Because I can't.

Fionne Orlander comes across very well on Twitter to

I agree, Fionne seems lovely.

Thank you to all the signatories of that letter, for saying what many other trans people would like to say but are too scared to. Raising a glass to you all tonight

They are still donning womanface. It is still offensive.

I agree with you TheUterati. Sadly I think people might actually listen to them though. And if we have some ground rules, perhaps we can build a coalition. To work to retain and strengthen our separate and different rights. Third spaces. Respect for women's boundaries. Yes I'm probably naive.

I don't find it offensive. For many years men have identified as women and women as men. I don't have a problem with people who find their one life is happier identifying as the other sex.
AS LONG AS they don't claim to "be" the other sex, they don't compete against the sex they want to identify as for sex specific lists and sports and they don't insist the other people in that sex use silly prefixes like "cis" and have "privilege" and angrily protest against them

I would like to say "thank you" to the signatories. It took courage to sign that letter and I salute you all.

A white person donning blackface is offensive.

A man donning womanface is no different.

Start by calling yourselves men, and then I'll start thinking about respect.

AS LONG AS they don't claim to "be" the other sex, they don't compete against the sex they want to identify as for sex specific lists and sports and they don't insist the other people in that sex use silly prefixes like "cis" and have "privilege" and angrily protest against them

YY. Those are the kind of ground rules I was meaning. And third spaces to undress and sleep. And being considerate of majority female social spaces.

TheUterati There is nothing I can say to your last couple of posts but BRAVO

Thank you @Jayceedove & friends, you are all amazing!

I am sorry - but this is the kind of fawning that makes me sick. And part of why it makes me sick is because it is so inevitable as an expression of patriarchy.

It makes me just as sick as it does to imagine black people so utterly grateful to a white person who dons blackface (but, as here, says, but I know I'm not really black) speaking up against racism.

TheUterati What's peeved me is the short memories. I would rather give accolades to PosieParker.

What 2rebecca said.

It’s a very welcome letter. This whole self ID thing does no good to anyone apart from TRAs and autogynephiles.

I am grateful to the signatories

spontaneous - that too....
This is colonisation of women's intellectual spaces.

Transsexual friend of mine is extremely relieved to see this.

I too applaud those signatories. Thank you

I agree with much of what you say TheUterati but I want anyone and everyone to speak out against the TRA bs.

spontaneous - that too....
This is colonisation of women's intellectual spaces.

When the man who attacked (it wasn't Posie) Sweary from ManFriday is then fawned on here for signing a letter it makes my stomach heave.