If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

[midgebabe]

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

dodoPatrol

Hello - yes I'm Nic Williams. Here is the link to the most recent MoJ trans figures of 125

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/noms-annual-offender-equalities-report-2016-to-2017

It is transphobic,

It would be really helpful if you could define ‘transphobic’. Thanks

dodopatrol
Oh and btw although prisons allocate based on legal sex a trans-identified female prisoner with a GRC (so legally male) is allowed to stay in the female estate if they want. This is a different rule for them because the prison service acknowledges it would be bloody dangerous for a female born person to be sent to a male prison.

This does have implications for the women prisoners that I havent thought of before actuyally. These transmen can be living in the womens prison - they aren't really men of course so dont present more of a danger than they did before they called themselves men. but we do know that if they are on testosterone it will make them more aggressive.

Thanks, will read! I appreciate your taking the time. There's such as shedload of misinformation flying about that I prefer not to add to it inadvertently.

"Transphobic" has indeed become a silencing word.

It's suddenly come from nowhere to become the most terrifying thing one can be accused of. Worse than paedo, misogynist, racist, or homophobic. We'll do and say ANYTHING not to be labelled a trans-phobe.

As others have pointed out, it's a silly, made-up word which isn't even used to mean the thing it is supposed to mean: A phobia is an "irrational fear" but the word is now used to mean "someone who does not wholehearted love and adore every cross-dresser and everything he does and says."

I don't wholehearted love and adore every cross-dresser and everything he does and says. Some of them hate women, make ridiculous, nonsensical assertions (e.g. "It's a lady-penis", so it can't get you pregnant) and some are just pornified parodies of us. We have a perfect right to dislike people who hate and parody us.

If that that makes me a transphobe, so be it. I'll get a badge made!

However, let's inject some sanity here. People ARE allowed to dislike, even hate, whomever they want. So long as they don't incite violence towards that person or group. We still have freedom of thought.

Disliking certain people or groups does not make someone an evil bigot. It means they are discerning and have an opinion.

I hate the Nazis, kiddie fiddlers, the Tories, wife-beaters, misogynists, porn-watching men, Corbyn (now), my next door neighbour, people who are cruel to animals, racists, narcissists, murderers, rapists, and a whole host of other groups or types of people, and if I were to hate the trans, that is also my right.

Transphobic is the misogynist and homophobic word for feminism.

And, as I've already said, I don't give one solitary shit if misogynists and homophobes want to rebrand feminism as transphobia. I'm still a feminist. I've still got friends who have transitioned who a) like me, and b) are neither misogynists nor homophobes.

Happy to be called transphobic. I just hear feminist when it happens.

hereyougosuckmyassforensics I refer you to my post at 9:18 this morning which you failed to be arsed to read.

This level of bigotry towards other groups absolutely would not be tolerated

Of course. Women who dare to politely and logically question the implications of Self-ID or resist the term 'cis' are frequently threatened with violence, sexual assault, told to die in fires, and compared to Nazis, but we're the bigots

I took a break from MN recently as I disliked the level of focus on sexism and transgender issues. I thought you was a bit hysterical and actively seeking to be scared worried or offended, I will be honest and hold my hands up to that. But in the past few months I've used Facebook a lot and It has really highlighted to me why it's a good thing that women can really talk about these types of issues here without being shut down or laughed off as being a snowflake or hysterical, well mostly anyway

I've been jumped on and called all sorts for raising some of the issues pointed out in this thread and it's not even just with transgender stuff either it's with lots of things. I went against the tide on a post about those Clark's shoes a while ago and pointed out that whilst it's a very small thing on it's own it's just one of the many gender stereotypes that helps to form the bigger issues of sexism in society and I was laughed straight off the post with every feminist insult you can think of, it was even assumed that I must me a freebleeding vegan iirc.

It's refreshing to come back here and read posts from people who aren't arsed about appearing to be all accepting and never offended and instead actually engage their brain and think about things properly.

Do you need a positive adjective to counter the knee jerk "transphobic".

"Pro-biology" "gender-free" "biology positive" "chromosome-supporting"...

DoctorW

Your study found 10 trans prisoners in IOW and labelled them as sex offenders due to your claim that IOW only houses sex offenders as explained in your study because 98% of inmates are sex offenders.

A check of the MOJ confirms that IOW also holds venerable prisoners. you know the type of inmate trans prisoners are! But even so with over 1000 inmates in IOW your 10 only represent 1% of the population and half of your ignored 2% population .

How did you account for and identify those 20 non sex offender prisoners in your study before you marked the 10 trans prisoners as sex offenders?

@TeaEnjoyingRadientFeminist that sounds like something a donald trump supporter would say. Bigots come in all shapes and sizes and SHOCK HORROR feminists can also be bigots.

@RedToothBrush I don't usually "be arsed" to read posts that start with an oh-so-eloquent "are you fucking stupid". Any credibility you had to begin with completely vanishes when you talk to people like they're shit on your shoe. People like you harm your cause.

I just had a quick look at extant guidance for Prisons on the Care and Management of Transgender Prisoners.

I've never looked at this before so by no means fully versed with how this works, however, it appears that there is already a presumption in favour of housing self-identifying transwomen (no GRC) in the female estate.

The guidance states that there may be a minority of cases where this presumption will not be supported:

In the minority of cases where that is not possible, the reasons for departing from this starting presumption must be clear, explicit and made known to the person they affect, especially when it involves assigning someone to a male or female prison.

The majority of such cases are likely to concern transgender people convicted of serious offences, where both public protection and the best interests of the person themselves may not be compatible with the general presumption described above. However, this will not be true of all transgender serious offenders and it is important that policy for the majority should not be founded upon the highly complex considerations raised by a minority

So if a MTF prisoner who self-identifies (no GRC) and who wishes to move to the female estate can already do so under current prison policy, what is really going to change if self-id is enacted under the GRA?

Tbf hereyougo RedToothBrush has done bloody LOADS to further the cause on these boards, with relentlessly insightful, informative posts.

Frustration gets the better of us all sometimes.

What home said

red also has the patience of a saint

DoctorW. It’s exactly that. The pattern seems to be that once women start to transition or identify as male they are ramping up attempts to attack fellow female inmates. Whether that’s because of taking testosterone (quite likely) or they just feel some sort of psychological barrier has been broken throughthat gives them validation, I don’t know. I think it’s an important part of the debate though that people often forget about.

@hereyougosuckmyassforensics

Of course, I'm a massive Trump fan

I have no doubt they can be, there is no vetting procedure to weed them out unfortunately. When they are being bigots feel free to get in line to call them out as the majority of posters on these threads tend to do. But SHOCK HORROR 'politely and logically questioning' an ideology isn't bigotry and people do not deserve any of the vitriol that is thrown at them for doing so.

I'm at the point of knowing who is going to be persuaded and who its a waste of time banging my head against the wall with.

I think it better to point out people who really cannot be bothered to engaged with the issues, no matter what you say.

The laziness does need to be called out for what it is.

People are being demonised for trying to express their point in a rational and fair way and told there is no debate, when that's no how democracy should work and there are problems here that people don't have the decency to acknowledge and prefer to sweep under the carpet and pretend they don't exist in one way or another. The fingers in the ears going la la la approach, isn't going to stop harm being done by poor law making and misunderstandings of the law.

Women DESERVE to be listened and be reassured.

If it pisses a couple of lazy people off to be pulled up on it, fine. It obviously hit a nerve.

This level of bigotry towards other groups absolutely would not be tolerated

I see this sort of statement again and again on mumsnet, hereyougosuckmyassforensics, but what the bigotry is, is never explained, however much people ask for clarification. I've posted a number of times on this thread; would you include my posts as part of the "bigotry" you cite, and if so, why?

The "issues" seem to have snowballed recently

Do you know why this is? There is a very specific reason that is continually discussed.

MNHQ don't seem to give a shit

But they do. They seem to be aware of the specific reason behind this and are sticking their necks out like very few other media entities, such as The Times, because this consider this to be an important issue where discussion shouldn't be shut down.

Have a proper debate. Offer proper reassurance by going through the pitfalls one by one. This ill feeling will largely all disappear.

Instead we have a total contempt for why this process is worthwhile and why its needed.

It would be really helpful if you could define ‘transphobic’. Thanks

It would also be really helpful if you could define 'woman' because the only definitions I know are, apparently, bigoted.

And, while you're finding these definitions, look up 'female' as well, because more and more I'm seeing it used interchangeably with 'woman'.

Likewise 'sex' and 'gender'.

Obviously these definitions need to apply to both me, a human who has gestated and given birth to babies, and Lily Madigan.

It would also be really helpful if you could define 'woman'

Adult human female