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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

405 replies

midgebabe · 05/03/2018 17:22

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

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Rumpledfaceskin · 06/03/2018 09:11

Linking violence towards women with trans issues is a bit of a red herring (apart from in prisons, which I’ve said from the beginning where it could be a very real threat if some people are not segregated) and doesn’t help anyone. Perceived risks and real risks are very different. It reminds me of the ‘stranger danger’ campaign in primary schools in the 90s. Never had something been so misguided and purely a reaction to mass hysteria. We all know that the real risks to children are not strangers but family and friends. Comparatively few women are attacked by strangers and if they were to be attacked in public toilets or changing rooms they would be anyway, bacuse their attacker would be a deviant criminal who didn’t care about a lady symbol on a loo. The safety of public toilets and changing rooms comes down to good design, not sex segregation.

velourvoyageur · 06/03/2018 09:11

Wobbles
You are right & I should have qualified that bit to say 'not all parents'. And it is scary how parental authority is being undermined by TRA intrusion in schools and medical practice. But I'm not really talking about parents who have to deal with the situation persisting even when it's been explained many times to the child that preferences and mannerisms have nothing to do with boy/girl - although as I said I do think it is mostly a situation that will have been created in the home environment - I am talking specifically about those do seem to have this conservative loyalty to gender stereotypes and it seems that exclusively this type do feature in the prominent documentaries, US/UK talk shows etc. I really do try to keep an open mind when watching docs about trans kids but I have honestly never seen one where the kid transitions early and which doesn't come down to 'X always liked pink and despite us telling X that pink is a girl thing, he continued to choose pink everything, and so now X is known as a girl and is much happier'. They contain little to no mention of the child's disliking their body.
I realise that a lot of the advice out there is being pushed by TRA but my point is that surely you stop being passive and start exploring every avenue when you realise that labelling your 5 year old boy a girl is a decision that will take on enormous momentum, making undergoing medical intervention so much more likely - unless perhaps you are really uncomfortable with the idea of having a GNC child.

ArcheryAnnie · 06/03/2018 09:14

And I still think the internet is in mass hysteria about some aspects of the debate when the RL risks thrown around like it’s happening everyday are actually minimal.

There's about half a million girl guides. Girls at one of the most difficult, vulnerable times of their lives - puberty and adolescence, when their bodies are changing, and when they are exploring who they want to be in the world.

The guides say they are there to empower these girls, but they've now decided to allow boys who id as girls into the guides. They will not tell either the girls, or the parents of these girls, that boys will now be in their gatherings, their dormitories, their loos, their changing rooms.

What a fucking betrayal of those half-a-million girls. Hardly "minimal".

LifelongVaginaOwner · 06/03/2018 09:17

I’m sure I’m considered transphobic by some militant people who post things online because Im against self ID

No. The mainstream, not extreme, view in the Labour Party at least is that opposition to self ID is in itself transphobic.

They are now proposing supporting, and if in power driving, legislative change on the basis that opposition to self ID is transphobic.

RedToothBrush · 06/03/2018 09:18

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway. It's silly to think otherwise. If they want to walk into a public ladies loo and rape you they will they don't need to pretend to be a woman to do it. History shows us this. If they want to assault you at the swimming pool they will. Again history shows us this. Bad men will do it anyway. It's daft as fuck to thing the law is in some way going to give them more freedom to do it. Where there is a will there is a way

LET'S REMOVE ALL SAFEGUARDING THEN. THERE IS NO POINT IN IT.

Really? Are you that fucking stupid and that fucking privileged to say that its unimportant and not worth thinking about? Its all about how you balance this with concerns. Noting you have to acknowledge concerns, and take them seriously rather than dismissing them offhandedly without offering reassurance, in order to do this.

Unfortunately this is exactly what is proposed, because along with the proposed law change is a culture where any concerns raised can be silenced with a threat of calling someone transphobic. This means that people might be endangering their careers to speak out if they have been abused or fear someone else is being abused. Even if the law was technically on their side.

Its not about trans people abusing it (although its very possible), its about the ability to abuse it across the board because the idea is so poorly conceived and misunderstood (sometimes deliberately so) in practice. There is a blindness to this, from people who this will never affect or have no life experience which has led to them seeing exploitation of the system by predators.

I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Have you learned nothing from #metoo?

Apart from the numerous examples on this thread, women typically don't speak out when there is a problem because of the nature of power structures that work against them. See my comments above about the culture surrounding the trans debate and how this silences women. I'm yet to see a single definition of transphobia too, and this is crucially important to that culture of silencing.

From a personal point of view, from the 'inside' so to speak, what I've seen and experienced leads me to believe that part of gender ideology is nothing to do with gender identity at all, but is to do with power. This is crucially important to understand. Why? Because people drawn to that do so for particular underlying reasons. Some of these are harmless, some are a sign of having been harmed or being vulnerable, but for others its an altogether more worrying pattern.

The transwidow thread is an eye opener in that regard. There are patterns of behaviour that raise red flags. The pattern of behaviour on twitter from many TRAs is alarming.

Its certainly not hysterical to be concerned about the prevalence of people saying that lesbians are transphobic for not liking dicks and that they should be re-educated. This is not isolated. Its how widespread the thinking is.

If we fail to see this, respond to it and think about how we can safeguard lesbians both within law and within culture through language and what is acceptable to say, then we are complicit in homophobia and potential coercive and abusive behaviour.

For me its not simply the proposals that are problematic, its also the cultural bubble this comes in, which leads to the potential for harm being even more likely, yet no one wants to acknowledge that the position we are because it's lacking in transparency and not open to constructive criticism (instead viewing all criticism as simply transphobic) is a recipe for disaster.

At its heart the framing of the narrative that trans people are the most oppressed in society is fundamentally and profoundly flawed. It sets this idea of who is victim and who is abuser which might not necessarily be true in reality. We should not be blinded by over generalisations.

Those in society who find it hardest to voice an opinion don't have power. We should always remember this and reflect on it. Silence should never be regarded as a measure of no problems alone. You should also reflect on how easy it is to get heard and taken seriously. If the culture isn't open enough to that, silence is meaningless.

Open debate, isn't just about winning the argument. Its about acknowledging the need for debate and that different experiences and opinions are valid, even if you disagree with them. Its about an opportunity to offer reassurance and find solutions to concerns.

Instead we have the shit we are currently having.

Calling anyone 'hysterical' in that context is utter bollock. It comes from a place of understanding and ignorance. But then given posters on this thread have already admitted they are too lazy to read threads, I don't hold out much hope of them making it to page 9 of this thread, much less read a long post.

The trouble is, three words - transwomen are women' - or shouting transphobia at everything are easier to process and swallow without thought about what they mean in practice.

That's politics for people who leave themselves open to exploitation and abuse.

Iminthecclubnow · 06/03/2018 09:20

I find it very telling that TRAs, for all their clout, their loud voices, their activism, don't appear to ever have any intention of campaigning for third spaces.

Not even as a stop gap while the world gets 'woke'. It's never even really been mentioned.

Even though its the obvious solution. Yes logistically it might be difficult in places, but disabled people have campaigned relentlessly for better provision and things continue to get better.

No, it's either the women's toilets or 'genocide' apparently.

velourvoyageur · 06/03/2018 09:21

Comparatively few never mind them then eh?

their attacker would be a deviant criminal who didn’t care about a lady symbol on a loo
Reads like you haven't read the many posts upthread re: the fact that many predators are not so brazen that they'll put themselves at legal risk to enter women's bathrooms, but will be fine exploiting the lax legal provision that will be reality if self-ID gains recognition in policy.
These people do not use moral yardsticks to make decisions, they strategise with ref to personal risk. There's no use dehumanising the predatory stranger as someone who's blindly sex crazed and willing to sacrifice anything for their 'fix'. They are people, they rationalise and walk among us, we don't identify them until they are actually committing the offence.

QuentinSummers · 06/03/2018 09:23

rumpled it's not just about safety concerns. It's about women's rights, our ability to be recognised as an oppressed group and what forms that oppression takes.
I also find it incredibly offensive to suggest that my biological reality is of less importance than men's ideas if what womanhood is and feels like. It is the epitome of misogyny.

Read this
medium.com/@GappyTales/a-crisis-of-misogny-a-plea-to-the-labour-party-4ce9d39e11c4

LangCleg · 06/03/2018 09:24

Linking violence towards women with trans issues is a bit of a red herring

Well, if you ignore the blindingly obvious correlation with trans and narcissistic personalities, yes.

Male narcissists with fragile identities are the very males who pose the most risk to women. This includes males with a trans identity, which is fragile for obvious reasons. Refusing to validate a narc is the most dangerous thing a woman can do.

Again, you are impossibly naive.

Datun · 06/03/2018 09:32

Rumpledfaceskin

There are also more cases than people realise (they’re not publicised) of female prisoners transitioning to male and then trying to abuse women

I'm really interested in this. Because as far as I was aware, there were no transmen in prison. Is that wrong?

Currently the law says if you have a GRC you automatically get transferred to the estate of your preferred sex.

If you don't have a GRC you are assessed on a case-by-case basis.

As far as know, if you are a man who has committed a crime that would put you in the highest security possible, you would stay in the male estate. Not because that is considered sensible, but because there is no such unit in the female estate. However, that doesn't stop rapists being transferred to the female prison. (Rape obviously not being considered a crime that deserves the highest security possible).

So I imagine a transman, who had a GRC, would have to follow the same rules. Get transferred to the male estate. Which would, clearly, be wrong. And instantly underlines the ludicrousness of the situation. That everyone knows you can't change sex and women are more at risk than men.

The reason why this is only affecting a few prisoners, is because, currently, only 1% of trans people have a GRC.

You have to have lived in your preferred sex for two years and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Which makes it a pretty good gatekeeping tool. Although you don't have to have any kind of body modification or be on any sort of treatment. Or dress any differently.

And if self ID goes through, the gatekeeping will be removed.

The 12,000 odd male sex offenders could, on the basis of self ID get automatic transfer to the female estate. Since they would have to prove nothing about being 'trans'.

Also the most common paraphilia amongst prison inmates is cross dressing, I should imagine they would be lining up to practice this amongst females, as it would be arousing.

I really would challenge your assertion that the people the prison authorities are most concerned with is women identifying as men.

Because there are about 12,000 male sex offenders in prison and about 120 women.

ArcheryAnnie · 06/03/2018 09:35

I find it very telling that TRAs, for all their clout, their loud voices, their activism, don't appear to ever have any intention of campaigning for third spaces.

I have written before about a series of conferences I went to, where almost all the toilets were converted to "gender neutral", with only one set of loos (down a corridor, around a corner, up some stairs, etc etc) labelled women-only. TRAs like Roz Kaveney and Jane Fae would still walk the extra mile in order to go to the women's loos. It's not about safety in peeing. It's entirely about validation, and ownership of women's spaces, and violating women's boundaries. That's been clear for a very long time.

ArcheryAnnie · 06/03/2018 09:36

Sorry, bold fail on that top-line quote, there.

Iminthecclubnow · 06/03/2018 09:49

I also find it incredibly offensive to suggest that my biological reality is of less importance than men's ideas if what womanhood is and feels like. It is the epitome of misogyny.

Yes, this.

And I know it has been said a thousand times but, if I blacked up, wore my hair in corn rows, started listening to hip hop, and changed my name to Shaniqua, and then declared that I was a trans black person and that 'trans black people are black' and put myself forward for BAME positions and started telling black people that they need to 'do better' and they are not doing being black correctly, and how not all black people have black skin, and won awards meant for black people.....

Well, I think I would quite rightly be told to fuck off.

Rumpledfaceskin · 06/03/2018 10:00

Of course there are women who identify as male and wish to transition in prison, why would any member of the public know about this unless they had contact with people who work with them and offload about their hellish jobs, like I do? There’s not a ‘list’ of trans people. Although to be fair my person doesn’t work in a normal prison. It’s a secure unit for people who are diagnosed as mentally ill and have committed serious crimes. They currently have concerns about women on wards with other women. More so than their male clients who either are or claim to be trans. Most are assessed as having no real desire to transition, so I guess they’re considered not to have GRC. Some of their male clients have transitioned fully but have been released by the time it’s complete. I’ve not heard of any being allowed to move to a women’s prison but maybe that’s because they are the highest security prisoners.

Datun · 06/03/2018 10:13

There’s not a ‘list’ of trans people.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but it is wrong.

The data was originally not available. So fair play for women read every single inspection report and produced an article on the basis of those.

This was published in the times amongst other places.

Trans-activists went into overdrive to debunk the statistics.

Consequently, the Ministry of Justice was forced to collate and release their own figures.

Which they did. And it was found that Fairplay for women had actually underestimated the statistics. They had done this deliberately in order to not be accused of bias. Where it wasn't clear from the inspection reports they said so.

DodoPatrol · 06/03/2018 10:14

Datun, I've posted this before about prison stats because as far as I can see, the figures are being misquoted on here and are more obscure than that.
'I'm getting from the National Offender Management Service that of the 125 reported cases of transgender prisoners (rather weirdly defined as 'those who have had a case review and don't have a GRC'), 99 reported themselves to be male, 23 as female and 3 didn't say.

I can't be sure whether this means that 99 of them were biological females who identified as male, and only 23-ish males who identified as female, or whether some of those correctly reported their sex, having misinterpreted the question.

There were NO figures for those who have already got a GRC, as they are already legally of the opposite sex. The NOMS report was specific about that.'

But I keep seeing the figure '125 trans prisoners, half of them sex offenders'. If that's a figure from somewhere else, where is it from?

Don't get me wrong: the known and named cases of dangerous male sex offenders who want to be in women's prisons are more than enough to worry about, but I don't want to misquote figures.

LangCleg · 06/03/2018 10:19

I said this on a thread yesterday but here is my question:

If a GRC can be issued to a rapist or a child sex offender and there is no risk assessment in the application process that even takes note of MVAWG or such convictions, why should I respect this piece of paper or give any acknowledgement to holders of it?

Why?

DoctorW · 06/03/2018 10:20

DodoPatrol
Hi - I did the study by Fair Play For Women counting the number of trans prisoners. Half of them being either in specialist sex offender only prisons or cat A top security. The study and other info in link below

fairplayforwomen.com/impact-gra-reform-uk-prisons/

Datun · 06/03/2018 10:21

But I keep seeing the figure '125 trans prisoners, half of them sex offenders'. If that's a figure from somewhere else, where is it from?

It's here. Including the way the statistics were arrived that, every step of the way.

fairplayforwomen.com/impact-gra-reform-uk-prisons/

Datun · 06/03/2018 10:22

X post. Sorry.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 06/03/2018 10:22

f female prisoners transitioning to male and then trying to abuse women

That seems a weird thing to do

Its not like you have to be a male to abuse women, there have always been violent women (just not as many as violent men)

But yes, definitely reinforces the need for a 3rd space

hereyougosuckmyassforensics · 06/03/2018 10:24

It is transphobic, people including myself have complained and MNHQ don't seem to give a shit. The "issues" seem to have snowballed recently, and it does all seem a bit hysterical. This level of bigotry towards other groups absolutely would not be tolerated so I don't know why it's not only allowed but actually defended by MNHQ.

DodoPatrol · 06/03/2018 10:25

Thanks, Datun and DoctorW (Nic, I assume!). Do either of you have a link to the updated MoJ figures, though, as I'm sure FPW could more easily be accused of bias than the MoJ's own stats?

Presumably the NOMS report has a coincidentally similar number of 'not yet GRC but trans' prisoners?

DoctorW · 06/03/2018 10:25

DodoPatrol
Figures released after the study do say 125 - and like you say its hard to tell what sex they are and they are not the ones with a GRC

In my study - we counted the number of mentions of trans prisoners in annual prison reports. From this we counted a minimum of 113 trans prisoners. We don't know if they are transmen or transwomen from the reports - but I did confirm with MoJ with a Freedom of info request that there are not female born prisoners currently in male prisons. So this means all the trans prisoners counted from the male prisons must be transwomen (including all the prisoners in the male sex offender only prisons).

DodoPatrol · 06/03/2018 10:27

Hereyougo - the 'level of bigotry' arises because there are genuine problems that stem from regarding people's gender as more important than their sex. That's what I keep coming back to, despite all my preferences for being nice.