ITV 8pm Tonight programme on the trans debate

[ijustwannadance]

Be interesting if it actually gets debated.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bbxQzPjHk&feature=youtu.be&t=414

Apologies for the YouTube link in Miranda's post below. It didn't come out right. This one should work.

Pearson on the left, Sandeen on the right.

This teaches that if you are non conforming you have to do something so that you can fit in with gender stereotypes. You can be non conforming, but you must conform by altering yourself in someway in order to preserve those gender stereotypes. And in doing so, reinforce those stereotypes.

That is authoritarian where its about compliance with doctrine.

Why are we not teaching that its ok not to play by those rules and be nonconforming?

Its because the rules and control of people is more important than true freedom of expression.

Its a mind trick, which makes you think you are liberated/liberal and free when the reality is the exact opposite.

A lot of posters seem to be conflating sexuality and expression with gender identity. Are you really that terrified your little precious ones will be corrupted, learning about a socially developed construct as if it will rub off on them. Your little boys aren't going to come home wanting a skirt for their birthday.

How ignorant. This issue is here to stay and unfortunately it may well be a case of waiting for your generation to die off before it can be fully accepted. Ironically like sexuality..

As for your horseshit.

Its got nothing to do with this.

Its about the harm that comes from making promises and coming up with false solutions for underlying issues.

You can not change sex. This means your ability to have children may be removed before you have the capacity to really understand that.

It means that you may not be able to find a sexual partner because you have limited your pool of possible partners.

It means you might not function properly sexually or have other physical issues that are the result of hormones and surgery.

It does not address why you felt unhappy. There is sadly often a hidden history of abuse or pain thats never tackled and is avoided.

And then theres the 'collateral damage' that follows this everywhere with the need to get everyone to say black is white despite it not being true. The harm this does it complex and multiple. If you are in a relationship like this, it changes the power dynamic and can make the relationship abusive.

It creates situations in which it can be exploited by others to disguise criminal behaviour.

It removes the rights of women who don't feel able to express themselves, exist freely in certain spaces.

It condemns women to endure the stereotypes and be second class citizens. Without a voice.

But yeah you crack on telling us how we are bigoted.

I'll just sit here and cry some more about how it has utterly destroyed my family through its devastating insistence that you can not question gender and sex is meaningless and irrelevant.

Go fuck yourself with your sanctimonious ignorance. You know nothing about the reality of it. Your bubble of experience allows you to ignore it.

On again now.

Transitioning away the Gays and Lesbians might get a Nobel for a Medical transgenderist just like "In 1949, a Portugese neurologist won the award for inventing a procedure known as the lobotomy. It involved severing nerve connections within the brain."

How ignorant. This issue is here to stay and unfortunately it may well be a case of waiting for your generation to die off before it can be fully accepted. Ironically like sexuality..
What will actually happen is the children will start to sue the medical professionals, the schools, and the governments who failed at safekeeping and allowed this abuse to go on for years.

I am deeply concerned about the social contagion of suicide when they suggest repeatedly that (false) 45% suicide rate. They need a rap on the knuckles for that.

It's incorruptible and the people pushing this agenda who are confusing sexuality and gender. Sexually isn't catching. Your orientation is what is is, and it can change over your lifetime, but not just because that's what everyone else is doing. If that were the case no one would have been gay in the centuries when gay people were persecuted and demonised.
Your "gender identity" quite clearly is very heavily influenced by others, particularly if you're a child. These children are not making these choices in a vaccuum, they're making them in an environment and context where being trans earns you recognition, praise and special treatment, and where (for example) being a butch lesbian earns you doubt, bullying, and pressure to acknowledge your "true self". The massive increase in referrals to the Tavistock demonstrates that there is very defintely a social contagion effect at work. That's exactly why people are so concerned.

How can I be scared of my child's gender when I don't even believe it exists?
I do not understand how we are the regressive ones when we aren't the ones who want to put people into 71 categories? Be whoever you want to be. Wear make-up or don't , dye your hear, wear a dress or shave your head and wear a suit. I really couldn't care less how you present yourself. But you are either male or female or in a very small number of cases intersex.
As has been pointed out by others, 30 years ago we were more progressive than now. All the best men wore make up and lots of it. Some wore dresses and others dressed as 18th century men with frilled lace shirts with ribbons and bows. Thirty -forty years ago!!!! We have gone back not forward. Look through history. Men wore powdered long wigs with curls, silk stockings and heeled shoes, painted lips and rouged cheeks. They wore velvet caps with huge feathers. They wore ear rings and fir trimmed capes. Do youngsters really think they are the first group ever to put on make-up and challenge societies norms?

It is such a backward step to say this is woman and this is man. If you do this you are a man and if you do this you are a woman. Just do what you want.

What does it even mean to live as s woman or live as a man? I am yet to see a proper answer to this question that doesn't involve stereotypes.

this colonisation of women's space - is horribly manipulative; and is itself homophobic. How Stonewall can't see that, suggests they've been infiltrated by some right nasty bastards who are hiding behind the 'Right On' shield

Stonewall are not supportive of LGB rights at all. They, like practically all lgbt, women's only and feminist organisations, have sacked all the sensible people and made it all about the T.

Stonewall can't even bring themselves to say homosexuality means same-sex attraction. They insist lesbians should service Penis needs.

Stonewall themselves have published articles rewriting history erasing lesbians from the Stonewall Riots, and early activism giving transwomen of the times all the credit.

Are you that scared your child will want to be a different gender to the one you had in mind for them?

I'm terrified that skirt-loving boys and crew-cut girls might think that there is something wrong with them. There isn't. Leave their healthy male and female bodies alone.

Plus, transgender ideology is sexist (promotes sex-role stereotypes), misogynist (steamrollers girls' protective boundaries) and homophobic (pathway to sterilisation of overwhelmingly gay GNC kids). This ideology has no place in schools.

Plus, transgender ideology is sexist (promotes sex-role stereotypes), misogynist (steamrollers girls' protective boundaries) and homophobic (pathway to sterilisation of overwhelmingly gay GNC kids). This ideology has no place in schools.

This x 1 million.

And as OhYes says, it’s a huge step backwards. We’ve spent decades trying to blast gender steryotypes, we brought up our dc to ignore them and be who they want to be.
Kids are now being told “If you want to wear a dress, that’s fine, you feel like a girl? You need to now change your name, and mutilate your body”

what I've never been able to get an answer to is, if gender is somehow innate, how does that work across cultures/countries? Does the midwife who is "assigning" the gender, know in advance that little Johnny is going to move to the US when he's 3 and start playing soccer, so maybe he really ought to be Jane? But what if the move to the US is only a 2 year work relocation for his parents, and he comes back to the UK when he's 5, cos football is a boy thing here? Jane/Johnny/Jane/Johnny, I'm surprised the midwife has any time to, y'know, deal with the actual birthing of babies.

Or take last week, DH had a client meeting, then an industry dinner. He wore a suit to meet the client (male, from the ME) who was wearing a dress (robe), then changed into a skirt (kilt) for the dinner. Was he also supposed to change pronouns as well? Maybe demand "yes Sir" from the waiting staff at lunch, and "Hey Jimmy" at dinner?

Yes, that's all fairly obnoxious cultural stereotypes, but so is sex appropriation FGS.

Good God. Currently the only person in this house who owns a skirt is my 4 year old son. It's not about that at all

It's that someone will tell impressionable kids that they can take a pill and become the opposite sex (as happened on another thread here). It's that these kids, who spend so much time on the internet, will find people only too willing to coach them about it, how to talk to psychologists, where to buy hormones if the 'gatekeepers' won't give them to them. I remember being 15. I remember how determined I was about lots of things. I know that had I had the internet then (well, and money) I would have bought all sorts, because I bought all sorts from mail-order adverts in magazines! Luckily, those were generally just scams, rather than actually harmful.

The solution to finding the idea of being placed in a gender box because of your sex, isn't to make more bloody boxes!

Maybe demand "yes Sir" from the waiting staff at lunch, and "Hey Jimmy" at dinner?

ROFL.

myvisions Absolutely. If gender ID were innate we would expect it to remain consistent across cultures and throughout history. It's not consistent.

Jesus, Caesar, Pharaohs: all female because they didn't wear trousers? Was Winston Churchill female because he wore dresses as a toddler? It's such nonsense.

Something that does remain consistent throughout time and place is the existence of males and females as reproductive sexes.

"Something that does remain consistent throughout time and place is the existence of males and females as reproductive sexes."

And the oppression of one of those sexes by the other.

Stonewall themselves have published articles rewriting history erasing lesbians from the Stonewall Riots, and early activism giving transwomen of the times all the credit

I've been waiting for them to rewrite the history of Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp, patodp.

I keep hearing the “48% of trans teenagers attempt suicide”.

Does anyone know where this figure comes from?

Try www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/ LizzieSiddal.

Thanks I’ll have a read.

How are they allowed to keep repeating this lie?!

Why isn’t anyone, apart from MNetters challenging the figure?

It is a lie and it scares worried, caring, loving parents into conforming because the are desperate to do the right thing. It is cruel.

A sample set of 27, with no adjustment for pre-existing co-morbidities like mental health issues, and the possibility that people were drawn to complete the Pace survey because they already suicidal ideation ...

That Mermaids woman gave false data to everyone, therefore?

Promoting suicidal ideation in young people based on misleading data ought to be a crime, I reckon. Along with the promotion of puberty blockers and surgery.