M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

Who today have been shown to misrepresent the figures and studies.

No they haven't.

Anyone who reads the article can see that. They were perfectly upfront about how they collated the information, and why they drew their conclusions.

They deliberately, went out of their way to not misrepresent.

And, you still haven't answered my question.

How does self identification benefit women?

Because, Debbie6666, we can debate all the day long day about how a survey represents either side of an argument.

But, your tactic is to cherry pick parts of the argument that you feel you can refute. Which, is a tactic, but I am challenging the underlying motive here.

So instead of that, why don't you give me the argument that self identification is beneficial to women.

My motive is the protection and advocacy of women and girls.

How does self identification demonstrate that?

I'm a scientist. I like data,

I do too.

And I can totally understand how surveys and studies can be manipulated for either side. I really do.

The problem with this specific issue is the lack of data. Stats aren't being compiled as a matter of course.

Women having to do the leg work for themselves.

There is an overwhelming body of evidence across newspaper articles, social media, transactivist assertions, personal experience, notable incidents. Daily.

It's incredibly frustrating to not have officials collating data.

Crimes by men being recorded as crimes by women. People talking about ' women who do this' when it's men.

James Caspian, who wanted to collate data from female detransitioners. But was told by his ethics committee that it was not politically correct.

Women are thwarted at every turn. Venues targeted, women intimidated to stop them talking.

The lack of oxygen running through this issue is appalling.

My conviction is profound.

I have absolutely zero hesitation in calling for official statistics, evidence, surveys, studies.

I want them to happen.

Desperately.

Something that is irrefutable, is the distinction between genuine transsexuals, who have gender dysphoria and men who have autogynephilia.

There is ample, meta analysis about the two types of transwomen.

Scientifically studied with many sources to choose from.

I'm not a scientist. But the connection between fetishising women, which is rife in the trans ideology, and access to women's spaces, cannot be ignored.

From what I can tell, many of the studies, did not take into account the two types. The Swedish study only took into account men who had undergone SRS, for example. Something which is statistically more likely for men who do not have AGP.

A brain study, for instance, which I read a couple of years ago, I should imagine only took into account AGP individuals. Because it disregarded sexual orientation.

Identifying as transgender is a massively broad church.

You could have gender dysphoria, you could be a fetishist, you could be a chancer. Frankly, you could be a normal woman. I, personally fit the definition of transgender.

Define transgender, and you might be able to nail down its impact.

Once again Datun, I salute you!

How you respond, again and again, with logical, measured accuracy is a joy to behold.

Much to you

Something that is irrefutable, is the distinction between genuine transsexuals, who have gender dysphoria and men who have autogynephilia.

You really are having a laugh aren't you. AGP is junk science, ask yourself why every respectable psychiatric society has dumped it as a theory of transsexualism. Why it is systematically being removed from all the diagnostic manuals (its not completely gone yet unfortunately) Fundamentally the test for AGP cant be failed. its a witch test. Float and you burn in the fire of AGP, sink and you drown as a liar. Apply the AGP test to natal women and a high proportion of them meet the criteria.

Ask yourself why AGP transsexuals loose their AGP traits once on HRT and sex drive falls of a cliff, yet they still continue with transition, the two things are not compatible.

Stop reading TERF propaganda and go and read the counter arguments. Julia Sorano is a good start particularly on AGP but one you will dismiss as a TIM. But welcoming her and her theorys into feminism will help feminists with a different perspective on misogyny and trans misogyny for the benefit of all women.

But welcoming her and her theorys into feminism will help feminists with a different perspective on misogyny and trans misogyny for the benefit of all women.

Sounds a lot like mansplaining. Transplaining?

Women behold, this is how you are doing feminism wrong.

Debbie here's a really brilliant article by a TIM who self-identifies as AGP

unremediatedgender.space/2018/Jan/dont-negotiate-with-terrorist-memeplexes/

Stop reading TERF propaganda and go and read the counter arguments. Julia Sorano is a good start particularly on AGP but one you will dismiss as a TIM

Unbelievable. We should stop reading the thoughts of women on feminism and instead listen to a man's view? That will help us all out - daft bints that we are.

You make me angry.

TERF propoganda

''Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. They all have the same vulnerability to rape, to battery, as children to incest. Poorer women have more vulnerability to prostitution, which is basically a form of sexual exploitation that is intolerable in an egalitarian society, which is the society we are fighting for.''

Andrea Dworkin.

So these jailed trans folk - what are they all inside for? Not paying their tv licence?

Their rights are really not a priority in my book. And they certainly don't trump the rights of jailed women, who are very often in prison because of an abusive male in the first place.

There's no such thing as AGP it's bs but we've to read Julia Serrano....Debbie you're hilarious!

I'm having another Dark & Stormy.

Chin chin!

Someone posted a thread on Sarah Ditum's latest article in the New Statesman, and Ditum's final paragraph encapsulates my view in a nutshell.

"“Gatekeeping” gets a bad rap in gender politics. I’m happy to go on record as saying that gatekeeping is a lesser ill than putting a someone with a history of sexual offences when they were a man in women’s prisons. When it comes to gender, we can’t always give the last word to someone’s subjective claims about their own identity. Not because they might be lying or mistaken (how could we possibly test someone else’s sincerity?) but because in a case like Dean’s, it’s not thoughts that count, it’s deeds. If the gender revolution means a voyeur’s right to be seen as a woman is being placed ahead of women’s right to be safe from a voyeur, something has gone very wrong."

Ultimately the stats do not matter. Transwomen are men. If they behave themselves I'm prepared to politely pretend not to notice in a limited range of situations, but that limited range of situations does not, and never will, include their inclusion in spaces where women are naked and/or vulnerable, particularly prisons.

Stop reading TERF propaganda

Starting with Maya Angelou, Mary Wollenstonecraft, VIrginia Woolf, Andrea Dworkin, Alice Walker, Margaret Atwood, Marilyn French...

'Women, stop stuffing your head with centuries of silly nonsense by women about women having actual rights, because it's really inconvenient to the nice men who are trying to tell you what to think.'

No.

AGP is junk science

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

lol Triggered

Lol no. If you think we break into a sweat doing this, you don't know women.

You can try telling all those six foot two hundred pound d00ds who masturbate while wearing their wives and daughters clothing that there is no such thing as autogynephilia. I am sure they will agree with you.

Apologies if this study has already been reviewed here by @Datun or others:

New Study Shows Gender-Inclusion Policy at Target Stores Associated with Increased Sexual Violence

Key Findings:
• Sexual incidents increased across the entire timeframe, with 44 incidents in the four pre-policy trimesters (Jan ’15-Apr ’16), and 80 in the four post-policy trimesters (May ’16-Aug ’17).
• Females were the victims in over ninety-four percent (94.5%) of the incidents, and children the victims in thirty-four percent (34%). All perpetrators were male.
• The three-season forced-category measurement found a 2.3x increase in the amount of upskirt incidents after the policy, and a 2.9x increase in peeping tom incidents after the policy.
• A Poisson regression found the 4-year pre-policy to post-policy rate change to be 3.03 for Upskirt and 3.14 for Peeping Tom, and the 2-year to be 2.16 for Upskirt and 2.34 for Peeping Tom (both using Trimester as a variable).

• While it is possible that a general rise in voyeuristic sexual offenses relative to other offenses may account for some of this increase, the magnitude and precise timing of the increase suggests that Target’s gender-inclusion policy accounts for the bulk of it. The most likely hypothesis to explain our findings is that Target’s policy signaled to sexual offenders that voyeuristic offenses would be easier to perpetrate in their stores than elsewhere. We believe that this study shows that gender-inclusion policies can bring about increased harm to women and children

Full Study: womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

LOL, Oh the great scientific rigour of a study based on google results of media reports

Ah Debbie6666

You're doing my job for me.

God only knows how you can assert:

You really are having a laugh aren't you. AGP is junk science

Followed by:

Ask yourself why AGP transsexuals loose their AGP traits once on HRT

In the same post, no less!

So autogynephiles don't exist, except when they do.

There are very many transwomen who identify identify as autogynephiles. Hence the numerous websites devoted to it. See forced feminisation, cissification, etc.

Also (not for the faint hearted) autogynephiles who fetishise pregnancy. Perhaps you don't know, but there was a long running thread on here recently about a transwoman who ran a pregnancy a group for men fetishing pregnancy using prosthetic bumps. In AIBU actually, so a fairly long thread with mumsnetters doing what they do best, (as you can imagine).

And don't get me started on menstruation kits, to be bought online, to mimic menstruation for those who fetishise women's biology.

Not to mention the women who have posted on here who answer rape helplines. Who spot at 10 seconds the men, identifying as women, who call to fetishise rape.

And as for the brain bleach required from a thread started a few days ago talking about the hashtag #transgirls.

Well, boy, that one ran and ran.

You might also be interested in the long-running, heartbreaking thread on here from women who are married to, or divorced from, autogynephiles.

The stories are remarkably similar and they draw support from one another.

As for the transwomen who post on here. They are very aware of men with autogynephilia undermining their credibility. Which is entirely understandable.

Very many transwomen want to make a distinction. See India Willoughby.

I'm not sure how long you have been on mumsnet. But perhaps you might be making the mistake of thinking we are all just naive mums.

It's easily done. Many men do it.

It's called misogyny.

There 12 million unique users per month on mumsnet

Comprising scientists, physicists, biologists. endocrinologists, journalists, politicians, doctors, kinksters, transwomen, transmen, broadcasters, authors, lawyers, barristers, judges - and royalty.

That's (potentially) 12 million people, largely women, who can, and do, see all the evidence posted here about autogynephilia. A misogynistic fetish. Which is incredibly damaging to women, given that it relies upon seeing women as subordinate, compliant, weak victims.

My personal favourite was the man who posted on Twitter. In a basque and wig exposing his penis, riding a dildo up his backside.

It wasn't so much the image.

It was his wonderfully creative assertion that, given that he was a woman, 'this is what women do for god's sake.'

You pearl clutchers.

Although, I have to say, you are now fast becoming my all time favourite by saying:

"Julia Sorano is a good start particularly on AGP but one you will dismiss as a TIM. But welcoming her and her theorys into feminism"

That is absolute gold.

Serrano thinks pretty much any writing on or by detransitioned people is anti-trans propaganda and those of us who have experiences different from her are just "pawns" of some sort cisgender conspiracy theory against her rather than individuals. She devalues and tries to silence large parts of dysphoric communities to suit Serrano's own agenda as ~the~ expert.

and "lol Triggered"? Junk insults based on ableist ideas and mocking of PTSD, gender dysphoria, and several other mental illnesses. Can't really be much of a trans ally if you think triggers are a joke, but then I think you're here to have a laugh if you think the autogynephilia test would get a high proportion of women - I don't think most of us get aroused by the idea of "being mistaken as a woman by a stranger" since we can't be mistaken for what we are or get aroused by the idea of "talking in a high clear voice" or "having a woman's face" or "getting hair done at a salon". If a high proportion of women did, we'd be too distracted by constant blue-clits to get anything done.

Also (not for the faint hearted) autogynephiles who fetishise pregnancy. Perhaps you don't know, but there was a long running thread on here recently about a transwoman who ran a pregnancy a group for men fetishing pregnancy using prosthetic bumps. In AIBU actually, so a fairly long thread with mumsnetters doing what they do best, (as you can imagine).

Christ! I missed that one

Off topic but the pregnancy fetish reminded me: on my twitter feed today, there was an earnest thread reminding transwomen that they can still get prostrate cancer. I wonder if TIFs need reminding to go for smears? I bet they don’t.

OvaHere

It got deleted in the end. (There were parallels with Brian from Hull banging on about his yoni.)

Maybe for the best Datun. I'm not sure my blood pressure would take that one!

@NotTerfNorCis what’s wrong with a ‘youth’ brig in an M&S changing room? We like comfy, quality basics and an excellent hummus selection too you know