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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

M&S changing room policy

455 replies

iamawoman · 02/02/2018 07:27

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

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AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 09:21

It's just frustration, LostSight, having to explain the same issues over and over again.

The thing about comparing Norway to the UK is that those are totally different cultures. How many British women would be comfortable stripping off and showering casually with other women? I know a lot of Scandinavian people are, but most Brits aren't. My best friend is Japanese and she's totally casual about same sex nudity, whereas I avoid it when possible (though obviously it's not an issue in the same way it would be if you added men into the mix). In spaces where there are people from lots of different cultures defaulting to a standard that avoids discomfort for the majority makes sense, with provisions in place for those who're more conservative than the majority.

thenightsky · 02/02/2018 09:21

Wtfdoipick yes, a coat. So why not try it on on the shop floor? There's full length mirrors there for that reason.

ShotsFired · 02/02/2018 09:23

@Dilligaf81You do know a trans women is more likely to be attacked than attack someone (1) and if someone is pretending to be trans to get access then they are the issue (2) and would try anyway tm so why attack trans people?

(1) Independent verifiable source for this please.
(2) Welcome to the whole point of the discussions.

PerfPower · 02/02/2018 09:25

I thought one of the main problems with men having access to our changing rooms was the opportunity to hide a camera in there, then come back for it a few hours later completely unchallenged. An example of this was in our local paper a couple of years ago (nothing to do with trans, he was just an average bloke, but it makes life easier for his type).

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/02/2018 09:25

I will not use mixed sex changing rooms because of the very real danger of being photographed or filmed.

Google 'women filmed in changing rooms' if you want to see news story after news story of men being caught, charged and prosecuted for this - and then remember the ones who boast because they get away with it.

There are sites on the net where men swap ideas for the best rooms where naked women are accessible and where they also boast about and swap photos and videos.

Some explanation is here:

womanmeanssomething.com/violencedatabase/

MrWasheeWashee · 02/02/2018 09:28

It must be a right ball ache to live such a paranoid life.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 09:28

And yeah, the hidden camera issue. Men do it already, why make it easier for them?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/02/2018 09:33

It must be a right ball ache to live such a paranoid life

It's a right pain in the ovaries to be a woman in a patriarchal world where men continually invade our space and are violent to us.

There, fixed that for you.

LostSight · 02/02/2018 09:40

Well, I understand frustration. I was offering my perspective which I believe is valid, despite being different. I have gone through my early life thinking feminism is not really necessary and I have woken up as a middle aged woman to realise I was wrong and now I am trying to educate myself and am wondering what I should do next. I am currently crying because I have obviously made you angry and I hate that. I am conflict avoidant. I know I have that in common with many other women because the assertiveness course I was sent to by a psychiatrist was filled with other women. I’m not saying this because I want to argue or make you feel bad, but I am feeling very conflicted and it is taking everything I have to stay here and debate this and not walk away.

And to those who have explained about the cameras, thank you. That makes perfect sense.

RatRolyPoly · 02/02/2018 09:41

Ffs, really? All it takes is one man stamping his feet to get a policy changed?

It was a transman who was refused access to M&S changing rooms.

Datun · 02/02/2018 09:42

This is the difference between the concept, and real life.

As a concept, in your head, sharing changing rooms with men, can play out fine.

But in real life, it's completely different.

Firstly it's not just the vulnerability of getting naked, its the vulnerability of all the self judgement and personal critiquing that goes into clothes buying.

If you're confident enough to walk into the common area to see the outfit from a different angle, for instance. You will be twisting and turning, wondering, pulling the skirt down, pulling the shoulders up.

The 'male gaze' is unwelcome. It's discomfiting at best. And feels like an invasion of privacy.

I'm sure we all experienced someone's husband loitering just outside the entrance, as his wife asks for his opinion. They themselves often look uncomfortable with being on the spot (and the potential for a wrong answer.)

But at least it's a scenario that is played out largely on the women's terms.

A transwoman gives rise to the potential for a completely different experience.

Because of the issue of validation.

It's where the scenario in your head and the scenario in real life part company.

As the poster above says, the huffing and puffing, all us girls together. It's all part of forcing you to validate that they are the same.

You know it, they know it. But there is little you can do about it because the 'transwomen are women' is paralysing your objection.

I don't want my private experience of buying clothes to become the means of validating a man. Especially when I have no choice.

And if I display, in any way, my disapproval, I am the one who is in the wrong.

The potential for coercive and intimidating behaviour is huge.

The only people to gain from this is domineering men. There is zero benefit for women. None.

So no thanks.

RatRolyPoly · 02/02/2018 09:45

Er, Datun, I usually find your comments really explanatory and helpful, but I think you've engaged in some weird gender stereotyping there.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 09:46

Please don't cry! I'm not angry, despite the name, just not really up to restating the same arguments again at this particular moment, and I'm probably not the best person for someone who's not very assertive to have that conversation with anyway due to being quite the opposite. The good thing about a board as busy as this is that someone else will come along and lay out the same arguments I would have, like passing the baton in a relay.

Datun · 02/02/2018 09:47

It was a transman who was refused access to M&S changing rooms.

Were they refused access to the men's? Because that's correct. They should change in the women's.

If they were refused access to the women's, then it just shows that the entire problem with the ideology.

If we are going to blur the protocols between which changing rooms to use, people may well have assumed she was a man.

If someone is managing to disguise themselves so effectively as the opposite sex that they get questioned, that's not something that anyone can do anything about.

thenightsky · 02/02/2018 09:48

But there is little you can do about it because the 'transwomen are women' is paralysing your objection

This is exactly how I felt in that queue. Paralysed. I dare not say a word. The other women in the queue studiously stared at the floor or their phones. We didn't even dare make eye contact with each other at that point.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 02/02/2018 09:49

Let's not forget what happened to Target Stores in the US.

Numerous predators in the 'gender-neutral' changing rooms. And mass boycott

M&S changing room policy
YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/02/2018 09:49

I am currently crying because I have obviously made you angry and I hate that. I am conflict avoidant. I know I have that in common with many other women because the assertiveness course I was sent to by a psychiatrist was filled with other women. I’m not saying this because I want to argue or make you feel bad, but I am feeling very conflicted and it is taking everything I have to stay here and debate this and not walk away

I'm sorry you are upset lostsight and we can be a niggly bunch here sometimes because we are often goaded for our feminist beliefs and for our genuine fears re what is happening to women's safe spaces. See the post above from MrWilly or whatever his name was for proof of this.

I guess (gently) what I would say is that if an issue is raised here it is very, very likely that it is being raised for a good reason, and will be supported by many posters. It's possibly a good idea to sit back and watch for a few posts and maybe do your own research before you jump in with posts that could be provocative.

But don't go away (change your name if you want a fresh start).

AngryAttackKittens · 02/02/2018 09:50

I've had some really positive, supportive interactions with other women in changing rooms, in the part with the bigger mirrors that you can come out of your specific stall and use. Introducing men into those spaces would ruin the atmosphere that allows that, on top of the other issues.

Datun · 02/02/2018 09:50

RatRolyPoly

Er, Datun, I usually find your comments really explanatory and helpful, but I think you've engaged in some weird gender stereotyping there.

Haha! Did I?

I was thinking of my personal experience at Marks & Spencer's.

Perhaps I'm more gender conforming than I realise!!!

It was a long post, that could have been put into one sentence, to be honest.

I'm buggered if I'm going to be used as an unwitting tool to validate someone's delusion.

A little more succinct.

RatRolyPoly · 02/02/2018 09:51

Refused access to the men's; I was just correcting the assumption that it was a transwoman that's caused this particular kerfuffle.

EmpireVille · 02/02/2018 09:52

Today 09:28 MrWasheeWashee It must be a right ball ache to live such a paranoid life.

Women don't have balls - so no matter how paranoid we get, we never get ball ache.

Datun · 02/02/2018 09:54

LostSight

Please, please don't get upset.

Even on a good day, this issue makes people ratty.

I seem to have acquired the patience of a saint (which comes as a vast surprise to my family). So if you have any questions, I'll answer them, if you want to post them again.

notanotherspartacus · 02/02/2018 09:55

Currently India (and three blokes) arguing this on channel five. Unsurprisingly none of them can see a problem.

RatRolyPoly · 02/02/2018 09:56

Yeah, Datun, it was a little bit like "clothes shopping's a very special thing for a girl; having a man around ruins it". I don't think anyone's going to claim the "experience" argument for refusing a transman access to the gents Grin

Datun · 02/02/2018 09:57

RatRolyPoly

At Marks & Spencer's?

I'm sorry if this is going to sound like more gender stereotyping, but the kind of men who use the Marks & Spencer's changing room, might well feel uncomfortable with a woman using them to validate her identity.

Or a woman being in there at all.

I don't think it's difficult to understand!

People like privacy when they're vulnerable. That vulnerability doesn't have to be nakedness.

Just doing something private.

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