M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

but the thing is EVERYBODY is vulnerable to male violence. men get killed, gay men get killed, trans identifying males get killed. safe physical spaces for women do not help any of these males and nor can they. they exist because overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violence are male. the actual problem that needs addressing is the problem of violent males, however they may identify. and yet soon the data collected about that problem will be obscured as some male crimes are recorded as being committed by females.

I feel like if no woman has ever shared those kinds of experiences with you it's a sign that the women around you don't trust you at all. And probably for good reason.

Ereshkigal
Yes Debs, that would be exclusive male sex offender prisons. Pretty clear. They didn't "make up their own" data any more than anyone else who does a study does.

But those facilities don't house 100% sex offenders, as Datun pointed out

There is no official information published on the type of offences committed by TIM inmates. However, there are eight male prisons in England and Wales known to house only sex offenders (at least 98% of the population of those prisons)

They hold greater than 98% and no attempt was made to find out what that 2% represents, when it is highly likely the 2% exceptions to the population are the ones the study was trying to identify as trans prisoners are routinely housed in facilities with higher security to their crime level peers and in facilities that protect them from other inmates, you know the sort of facilities found in prisons that routinely house sex offenders. So with such obvious deficiencies in the analysis, the bias of the people performing the research the whole thing is rendered meaningless in terms of scientific rigour.

As for the Swedish study and me quoting the interview, I did also subsequently quote the study which supported the interview statement. But here it is again.

Crime rate
Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

when it is highly likely

Speaking of scientific rigor...nope, sorry, you don't get to just claim that with no evidence. At least not if you expect anyone else to believe it.

nolurkynolighty

I agree. Male violence is the root.

When I first came on the feminism board, there were a lot of threads about male violence.

I found it incredibly informative reading about the way it is framed.

I started to look around me to see how society views it.

And was utterly shocked. Not only the way it is celebrated in films, media, etc. But also the way it is very rarely called male violence just violence.

I experimented with my newspaper.

Over the course of a few weeks, I noted down how many articles were about violence.

On average there were about six or seven a day.

Almost all of them male violence.

But because the word male was never used, it just has this generic feeling that 'people' are violent.

Can you imagine if violent crimes were being committed by people who shared a characteristic, that wasn't their sex?

Headlines like six Sagittarians, this week alone, have violently attacked people.

Another Sagittarian annihilates their family. Sagittarian murdered their wife's lover.

Instead of which, the perception is that it's a Libran this week, a Capricorn next week a Gemini the following week.

Obviously, authorities are aware that violence is very gendered.

But it often comes as something of a shock to the general public to hear that perpetrators of sexually crime are 98% males and violent crime 90% males.

They hadn't realised it was quite that high, if they had ever thought about it at all. Especially other men. Women are far more clued up, because they have to be.

I really wish every time a report was written in the paper, they would hashtag it - #MaleViolence.

Or female violence when it's women. Because I'm fairly confident that it will be overwhelmingly one way.

And a push for public awareness would be incredibly useful in order to address it.

Men are very resistant to acknowledging that male violence is the problem that it is, and yet fathers still warn their daughters about it. I don't think that it's that they don't know, it's that they don't want to admit that they know because they all benefit from it in some ways, even the ones who aren't violent themselves.

Debbie6666

Except the Californian prisons study showed the same.

Transactivists are campaigning to be able to self ID.

This means, that they will automatically be given the rights of women.

No one is taking anything from them, no-one is denying them anything, they are proactively asking for rights that are not reserved for them.

On the basis that men who identify as women are the same as women.

There is overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise. (Quite apart from biology).

I think I've done quite enough to support my argument.

But let's pretend I haven't.

What, in your opinion, is the benefit to women of self identification?

Angry.

But that is exactly what your study did. It ignores them entirely. Had it investigated that 2% and found them cis then it would have stood up to your test. But it didn't, they were ignored and the trans prisoners categorised as sex offenders because most prisoners there were not because they were.

While I'm sure that incoherent ramble sounded better in your head than it reads you've still failed to prove your assertion.

Also, my study? Did I conduct it myself, then?

You might not like it, Debbie, but all the evidence suggests that a trans-identifying male is more likely to be a sex offender than a non-trans-identifying male.

That's what happens when the activism insists on widening the trans umbrella to include paraphiliacs such fetishistic transvestites. Paraphilias go hand-in-hand with sex offending.

You can't have it both ways.

Either the definition of trans is limited to old school post-SRS transsexuals - in which case you have a tiny and vulnerable population that most feminists would be happy to support.

Or the definition of trans is widened to include paraphiliacs under the guise of all this gender identity bullshit, in which case you have a much larger population, a large proportion of which has a strong correlation with sex-offending. This larger population presents a danger to women and girls and therefore feminists oppose it.

Which one do you want?

Here's the evidence of the Association of Gender Specialists to the Maria Miller enquiry. Evidence she chose to ignore.

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this.

Debbie6666

Sorry, can you write that again? I'm not sure what you're saying.

Also, is there any chance of you answering my question about the benefits of self ID for women?

Debbie 6666 it appears there is no place in this debate for reasoned evidence based discussion. I totally agree with your comments. There is no empirical evidence available to confirm the assertions of the discriminatory views of some of the posters here. I was asked why am I saying trans people are discriminated against, but truthfully it would take too long too explain but with the requirement of the 2004 legislation requiring mutilation and medical intervention which affects intersex disproportionately is a good starting point before moving on to the general discrimination suffered everyday by trans. I think some of it is about trying to create an atmosphere and society where we accept differences, in a similar way to trying to create a society where victims of rape and abuse can come forward without the victim blaming that has been part of our society for millenia. Anyway I'm pleased I'm not the only one enlightened and if that sounds patronising apologies in advance.

truthfully it would take too long too explain

How convenient.

#Maleviolence. This is so true.

Males are so used to framing their behaviour as the norm that they completely ignore the fact that 51% of the population simply doesn't behave as they do! Because we don't really count do we?

They don't want to publically acknowledge that statistically women behave better and that male violence is an unbelievably huge problem. A human rights crisis, as another poster put it.

I am also totally fed up with the film industry and how violence is glorified.

I haven't rtft, sorry, but are TRAs deliberately targeting clothes shops with their tantrums or is it just a coincidence coming on the heels of the Topshop story?

truthfully it would take too long too explain but with the requirement of the 2004 legislation requiring mutilation and medical intervention

Eh?

What on earth are you talking about?

A GRC requires that you be over 18, have presented as the opposite sex for two years, and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

No surgical treatment required.

And trans isn't intersex.

general discrimination suffered everyday by trans

Personally, I'm quite happy to discriminate against sex offenders, who are the subject of this "evidence-based" discussion. We're talking about safeguarding against sex offenders here, dear. Do keep up.

Jon66

Perhaps you can answer my question.

Since you're on the feminist board, what is the benefit of self ID for women?

It would be wonderful if you could, reflect your own need for a 'for reasoned evidence based discussion' in your argument.

What is the reasoned, evidence based benefit to women?

I was asked why am I saying trans people are discriminated against, but truthfully it would take too long too explain

That's convenient

Why do people always co-opt intersex people into these discussions? People who are born with a genetic condition have nothing to do with gender dysphoria

Yes let's be clear here. We're not talking about excluding intersex people. We're not talking about excluding transsexuals, or at least those of them who have gone to the trouble of obtaining a grc. We're talking about excluding autogynephilic and paraphilic men, and also sex offenders who are prepared to lie about their gender identity in order to increase their access to potential victims.

Other than 'these people don't really exist / don't really offend' which is manifestly untrue, what possible argument is there for allowing these men into women's spaces?

Jon66 wrote - "I was asked why am I saying trans people are discriminated against, but truthfully it would take too long too explain"

I'm sure transgender people will be grateful for your half-hearted level of commitment to their cause.

Shorter Jon - "I'm not sure why trans women are right, but feminists are definitely wrong!"

Or in fact "feminists are wrong because I possess the testicles of objectivity."

"And my penis is the divining rod of righteousness."

"hence my need to 'helicopter' it around in women's changing rooms."