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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

M&S changing room policy

455 replies

iamawoman · 02/02/2018 07:27

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

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AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 03/02/2018 12:59

Testiculating his righteousness

PencilsInSpace · 03/02/2018 13:27

Debbie - If however you want to limit the discussion on the impact of self ID on the prison population then it would seem reasonable to maintain the current approach which makes use of exceptions in the EA and GRA for treating trans prisoner transfers on a case by case basis with or without a GRC

That is not the current approach. PSI 17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders makes clear that where a prisoner has a GRC they must be housed according to their legal gender. Discretion can only be shown where a prisoner does not have a GRC.

The only time a transwoman with a GRC can be housed in the male estate is when their risk profile is so exceptionally high that a woman (old fashioned cunty sort) with a similar risk profile would also be housed in the male estate.

deadringer · 03/02/2018 13:31

My God those links that Datun posted at 00.22, when you see all that evidence of sickos posing as women to commit appalling crimes all posted together like that, it's just chilling! I am relatively new to all this, feminism and trans issues, and I can't understand why people who have concerns about self id are considered transphobes. It has been stated over and over again by feminists that they have no issue with genuine transwomen, but just want to keep women hating perverts out of all female spaces. How could anyone have a problem with that.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/02/2018 14:02

just want to keep women hating perverts out of all female spaces.How could anyone have a problem with that.

Option 1 - Think men's feelings are always more important than women's feelings and therefore women should just budge up and make room for men who for whatever reason would like to be in women's spaces.

Option 2 - Are also women hating perverts

Option 3 - I just want people to know that I'm right-on! I'm on the right side of history! Don't ask me to think too deeply about any of this stuff, that's not nice of you.

Datun · 03/02/2018 14:45

deadringer

I am relatively new to all this, feminism and trans issues, and I can't understand why people who have concerns about self id are considered transphobes.

Because all and any dissent, or even questioning is not allowed.

Mumsnet is about the only place where people can talk about it. In an exchange of opinion, such as this thread.

It is a hugely important issue. I can't stress that enough.

The very definition of the word woman is under threat. And there are many people who would like to see it so.

This got nothing really to do with trans people at all. Many people on here know trans people, have family members who are trans, or children, or are trans themself.

It's about women. Their rights. Hard fought for and in danger of disappearing. The most important of which, at the moment, is the right to a voice.

The transactivist hashtag #nodebate is not an accident.

And yes, some of the people who are advocating all this are trans. But many, many aren't.

It's when you see people who say they stand up for women, quite gleefully prepared to abandon them, it becomes a real concern.

If you read any of the threads on the feminist board about this, firstly, be aware that many women are quite a long way ahead on this journey. The anger and fear is a slow burn, but it's very real.

Secondly, uncork the wine. You'll need it.

Smile
Datun · 03/02/2018 14:50

deadringer

Also, if you're new to this, it can get very confusing with all the acronyms. Plus the layer upon layer of different strands to transactivism and transgenderism.

Lots of women are wondering what on earth this is all about, as it starts to blip at the edge of their radar.

There was a thread recently started by a woman who wanted it explained. There are some great links and straightforward explanations.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Jon66 · 03/02/2018 15:14

Medical intervention or mutiliation I should have said. Apologies.

Datun · 03/02/2018 15:18

Jon

What mutilation? Seriously. Can you describe what you mean?

And by medical intervention, do you mean a diagnosis of gender dysphoria?

Do you not agree that gender dysphoria should be the sole reason to transition?

Because if you haven't got gender dysphoria, what other reason is there?

AngryAttackKittens · 03/02/2018 15:22

Jon, do you understand that intersex and trans are not the same thing? Do you have a dictionary, and if not can you type words into Google?

Datun · 03/02/2018 15:25

Jon, do you understand that intersex and trans are not the same thing?

Ahh. Ok. That explains it.

Jon we are talking about transgender, not intersex.

I completely agree that intersex babies should not be operated on until they are old enough to decide.

Jon66 · 03/02/2018 15:37

Read the Act.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/02/2018 15:38

Don't be lazy, Jon. Explain.

Debbie6666 · 03/02/2018 17:27

So I found the California study referenced by Datun and again used by her to propagate the notion of trans people as violent sex offenders. What i found though was not a study that made this point although it did find slightly elevated levels of sex crimes, but rather what the study said all to loudly was that trans people in the California prison system are hugely and disproportionately the victims of violence and sex crimes both in and out of prison, that prostitution was significant in a large proportion of the inmates (oh and prostitution is also a sex crime btw) and that they were extremely disadvantaged, abused and marginalised group.

It's the classic Milo Y tactic, whereby he stated trans people were disproportionately involved in sex crime, conveniently forgetting to mention. AS THE VICTIMS.

So the claim about crime is supported by half a reputable study which found the latter cohort did not show elevated levels of criminal behaviour.

A California study which found that trans women were disproportionately victims of violence and sex crime and socially disadvantaged and sex workers

A half baked UK anti trans organisations study which in leau of HMPS data made assumptions about 2% of inmates in facilities which house sex offenders and conveniently assumed the trans inmates were the sex offenders without finding out what that 2% were convicted for and if they were the trans inmates.

So all in all a pretty false claim.

AssassinatedBeauty · 03/02/2018 17:35

@Debbie6666 perhaps I've missed it on this long thread but could you point out where people are suggesting that transwomen are all violent sex offenders? I thought the point being made was that transwomen retain a male level of offending, as a group.

LangCleg · 03/02/2018 17:45

Debbie, dear, it's in lieu of. It's French. HTH.

Are you aware that official statistics followed the Fair Play For Women analysis and they showed that it had slightly underestimated the proportion of TIMs currently in prison who are sex offenders?

Of course you are.

Debbie6666 · 03/02/2018 17:55

Sorry for my bad spelling.

But I would say its not slightly underestimated, its completely estimated

DodoPatrol · 03/02/2018 18:00

Debbie, SOME trans-identifying males are sex offenders.

Plus, PLENTY of ordinary garden-variety males are sex offenders.

MANY women are on the receiving end.

Argue the figures all you like, but I want a way of retaining the legal right to shout 'Bog off out of the ladies', you pervy little creep!' at any pervy little creeps in there, without them having that oh-so-convenient comeback that they were just identifying as a woman that day, you bigot, and getting me arrested for a hate crime.

(Mind you, I do rather hate pervy little creeps. I'm pervy little creep phobic, not transphobic.)

I can quite see that you'd rather argue the percentages than say that sex offending is wrong and making it easier is bonkers. Hey ho.

LangCleg · 03/02/2018 18:01

I would say its not slightly underestimated, its completely estimated

The subsequent confirmation of figures from MoJ weren't, dear. This was the point I made.

You needed a semi colon there and not a comma. You also needed an apostrophe to indicate the contraction. Twice. HTH.

Datun · 03/02/2018 18:15

What i found though was not a study that made this point although it did find slightly elevated levels of sex crimes,

Which is the entire point in terms of women.

If you want to campaign for protecting tranwomen in prisons, go right ahead.

I'll be right behind you. Violence in male prisons is horrific.

The answer is not to transfer male prisoners to the female estate.

Who could even think that?!

Women are not everyone's mummy. They're not. They're real people.

They deserve as much dignity and respect as men.

It doesn't mean they should be subjected to male people in their presence. From the male gaze to sexual assault.

84% of women are imprisoned for non-violent crimes. Almost half the women in prison have been victims of domestic violence and over half suffered childhood trauma, including sexual abuse. Where are their rights? Where is their voice that says they don't want men there because it's triggering.

Women are real people.

Ffs.

DodoPatrol · 03/02/2018 18:21

Having said that about the numbers: Datun, where are yours from? I'm getting from the National Offender Management Service that of the 125 reported cases of transgender prisoners (rather weirdly defined as 'those who have had a case review and don't have a GRC'), 99 reported themselves to be male, 23 as female and 4 didn't say.

I can't be sure whether this means that 99 of them were biological females who identified as male, and only 23-ish males who identified as female, or whether some of those correctly reported their sex, having misinterpreted the question.

There were NO figures for those who have already got a GRC, as they are already legally of the opposite sex. The NOMS report was specific about that.

So, overall, not a clue what to make of those stats!

DodoPatrol · 03/02/2018 18:22

Or rather , 3 didn't say. (My 4 is identifying as a 3 today.)

Datun · 03/02/2018 18:39

DodoPatrol

I'm going on the fair play for women stats.

It's a long read, specifically about prisons. But it's worth it.

WidowWadman · 03/02/2018 18:43

I can't remember last time I saw a segregated room in a shop. And what would the point be anyway, there's cubicles.

Debbie6666 · 03/02/2018 18:52

I'm going on the fair play for women stats.

Who today have been shown to misrepresent the figures and studies. Because I took the time to go and find the studies and read them, not just post link after link of biased unchecked junk journalism with an agenda.

LangCleg Feel free to spell and grammar check if that is where you think the debate will benefit.

DodoPatrol · 03/02/2018 19:01

I'll look them up if they cite their original sources.

I'm a scientist. I like data, and I like it to mean something (hence the irritation at the NOMS paper above).