I don't want to be a TERF

[PullUpTheTERF]

Please help.

I've NC'd for this because, well, obviously. I assure you I am a regular poster on many forums on MN, including Feminism.

Bit of back story; I am a loud and proud leftie feminist, massively pro gay rights, I am known in my circle of friends (I've been told) as being a champion for minorities, I've been to 12 gay prides and counting.

Being on this forum (since way back when it was FWR) has exposed me to gender criticism and TERF idealogies.

And I wish it hadn't.

I find myself agreeing with some (please note - not all) posters who have explained the, seemingly many, issues with the trans movement.

I'll nod along to certain comments and then hate myself for doing so.

I feel like I could never say any of this in public.

I really don't want to start a bun fight.

I'd really like to hear from some pro trans people specifically with some counter arguments.

I worry about going against gender stereotypes being labelled and parcelled as Trans.
My DS wanted a pink phone and my DMIL said he might want to transition when he's older. It infuriated me.
The thought of children having medical interventions really concerns me. I worry that someone can just say what they are and then they are that (but this doesn't extend to race, just sex)
I worry about female prisons and women only spaces being encroached. Can't believe I just said the word encroached.

But then I hear 'Being my true self' and 'Cis genders don't understand' and 'trapped in the wrong body's stuff and I feel awful.

I know if some of my friends knew about this they'd probably think I was a bigot.

I don't want to have these opinions anymore.
It puts me in the same camp as Trump FFS.

I hope this post is taken in the light it is intended.

[PullUpTheTERF]

Sophocles that has genuinely made my thoughts a lot less jumbled.

[PullUpTheTERF]

Womb
Is that really true??? But I thought that was the whole cornerstone of going through transition etc??

[BahHumbygge]

Re the desert island example, I was thinking of it from the p.o.v. of an external observer, so how the people saw themselves would be irrelevant.

Lol at "vibrancy". Not.

[tiptopteepe]

womb that is just a certain branch of trans activism that does not represent the whole trans community. Thats like saying that feminists who say all sex is rape and we should live without men represent the whole of the feminist community!! It just happens that sometimes the most extreme people are the loudest and get the most press attention. They are also used by anti trans groups to stir up fear.

[PullUpTheTERF]

sometimes the most extreme people are the loudest and get the most press attention. They are also used by anti trans groups to stir up fear.

This is certainly true

[SomeDyke]

As regards biology (as a scientist, but not a biological scientist).

Humans (and many other species) just are bisexual. As are many other species. The exact process of which sex you get to be may be reasonably straight forward (XX, XY), there may be various complications (XYY, etc), or like crocodiles which don't have sex chromosomes and where sex is determined by temperature during incubation. You can have species that change sex (fish, Blue Planet 2), one sex when small/younger, another when older/bigger. But despite all these shenanigans, humans are still a species with two sexes. That just is the way human reproduction works. We're not like sex-changing fish, we're not like some species of all-female unisexual whip-tailed lizards. There may be more complications within each sex than we thought, more richness and variation, but still two sexes, and we're not somehow evolving into a species that needs 3 or 4 (or even 1) sex for reproduction. Pretending we are, or conflating intersex with trans, is just a lie. It's an attempted sleight of hand that we've seen many times before, saying it's all complicated, then trying to slip that complication in to explain why a male, for example, as Bruce Jenner was when he fathered his various children, should instead be considered complicated and somehow not quite male, or in some biological sense female.

"So that adds weight to the argument that maybe we do have more than two sexes." Except there isn't such an argument, from a reproductive point of view. That's the things with genes, they tend to be (almost totally) binary, X or Y, that's yer lot! Birds, snakes etc have a different ZW system, with male being ZZ and females ZW.
The platypus (who would have thought it!), apparently delights in a XYXYXYXYXY or XXXXXXXXXX system! But as regards evolution and all these lovely complications, we still have species with basically TWO sexes on our branch of the evolutionary tree for the past hundreds of millions of years, and all the way back to the origin of sexual reproduction about 1.2 billion years ago.

From my point of view, might as well try and argue that we are going to evolve out of needing oxygen, as try and argue there aren't actually two human sexes!

Although I did like this quite from Wikipedia: "A third theory is that sex evolved as a form of cannibalism."...............

[GuardianLions]

Just did a search on truscum and this video came up

So it seems there has been tension in the trans community between those who say you need to be dysphoric to be 'trully' trans leading to their being labelled 'truscum' by those who consider non-binary and agender, also trans. The Ftt in the video says the term has be reclaimed by the dysphoric trans...

[SophoclesTheFox]

Glad if what I said made sense, pullup. a lot of what you say resonates with my thought processes, so I get where you're coming from I think.

[SomeDyke]

"Thats like saying that feminists who say all sex is rape and we should live without men represent the whole of the feminist community!!"

You might at least have the courtesy to quote correctly! It was Andrea Dworkin in her book Intercourse, and she never said that all sex was rape, or that even all penetrative sex was rape -- although various feminists have had quite a lot to say about the meaning of PIV sex (not all sex, how homophobic to think that!)................

[qumquat]

OP I think a lot of us have been where you are. For me what I am most concerned about is teenage girls. They are so disrespected by society. A 'peak trans' moment for me was Eddie Izzard and assorted right on types on Loose Ends on Radio 4, chuckling away at how amusing it was that he shouted at a group of teenage girls who were questioning him being in the women's toilet (while changing back into 'male' clothes). I was appalled at the total lack of empathy for teenager girls, presenting them as screaming harridans out to intimidate a poor famous 6 foot marathon man. I know you are worried about supporting the 'wrong' side, but Ifyou are considering siding with teenage girls over entitled middle aged men you are most certainly NOT siding with the oppressor.

I also knew some teen girls who were transitioning through my work. They were deeply unhappy being forced to wear skirts to school. No butch lesbian role models to lookup to (all were lesbian, now straight I guess). They suffered from homophobic bullying. They hated their bodies but then so do many if not the majority of 'cis' teenage girls. The way I see it they changed themselves to escape the judgment of society. We should be changing society not teen girls' bodies. I hope these boys are now happy, and I hope they don't regret it later or wish for bio children, but I worry. A quote from a detransitioner which has stuck with me:

'Transition was never the answer when you were never the problem'

[BertrandRussell]

"I sided with women, with lesbians, with gender non conforming young boys who might grow up to be gay. Also with traumatised young girls who want to opt out of being over -sexualised or abused, and the autistic kids, and the vulnerable people being swept up...these are the collateral damage of transactivism. So these are the people I side with, want to protect, want to use my voice in defence of. I'm still an ally"

This is perfect.

[PolarBearGoingSomewhere]

Thank you so much Sophocles

[WombOfOnesOwn]

The idea that you don't have to have dysphoria to be trans is NOT, by ANY means, just a small branch of trans activism, it's all of the current go-to activists online and all the major online trans communities. Activists pushing the "Wrong body" narrative are being actively pushed out, told to check their privilege, and derided as being hopelessly behind the times.

See:
www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/expert-qa

www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/article/trans-related-care-faq



genderanalysis.net/2017/03/do-you-need-to-have-gender-dysphoria-to-be-transgender/

everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/not-all-trans-folks-dysphoria/

transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people

www.quora.com/Do-people-have-to-experience-gender-dysphoria-in-order-to-be-transsexual-or-transgender (note here that 2 replies saying "yes, you really should have to have dysphoria to be diagnosed, it should be a requirement" are downvoted until they're in the "answer needs improvement" category, while all "no, you can be trans if you say you are, no dysphoria needed!" answers are upvoted.)

Here's an FTM posting all her reasons for getting a double mastectomy and she notes that none of her reasons were dysphoria: www.pinterest.com/pin/523895369142712025/

www.asexuality.org/en/topic/158672-nonbinary-question/

www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/5upsj2/if_you_dont_experience_dysphoria_what_makes_you/

genderterror.com/2014/04/15/dysphoria-not-required/

I could go on. These are many respected organizations, this is not some small number of activists. Today, you will be shouted down if you have these backwards, truscum ideas about trans issues.

Your choice isn't between allyship and TERFhood. It's truscum or TERFhood. That's all you've got, unless you're willing to go all the way and say that a woman is anyone who says they're a woman, period, no other qualification. Every trans resource now says transition in any medical or physical way is not necessary for transgender status, and all "gatekeeping" i.e. psych evals and differential diagnosis is transphobic.

The lengths you will have to go to in order to appease the developing orthodoxies will eventually be lengths you won't want to go to.

[DJBaggySmalls]

The concept is that humans created the terms 'male and female' and decide on their uses. Im nitpicking your numbers because those animals that do not mate could be not mating for any number of reasons. Some of which may be that they are not actually the sex they are assumed to be.

People who breed animals will tell you their behaviour is congruous with their biological sex. Stallions always behave like stallions and never like mares, and vice versa.
You can tell which horse is a stallion and which is a mare by their behaviour, their stance, their body language and how they react in specific situations.

Behaviour is congruous and predictable. The definition of mental unwellness is unpredictable behaviour, or behaviour which is out of context.

[GuardianLions]

Womb - can I ask - is it possible to be both 'truscum' and 'TERF'? In other words are the former those who genuinely believe they are in the 'wrong body' and the latter are those who think bodies can't be wrong (but minds can)?
Would Miranda Yardley, for example be bashed with both sticks?

[PullUpTheTERF]

I'm going to look into some Miranda Yardley stuff now, thanks to the PP who suggested her

[TammySwansonTwo]

This is why the ideology is so warped and so successful - because you literally cannot raise entirely reasonable concerns without being branded a bigot.

I read an incredibly eloquent serious of tweets earlier from a guy about why women are considered inscrutable, and that it's because women are right afraid of men. When people agreed and said this is why they're concerned about self identification and the erosion of female only spaces, he blocked them for being TERFs.

We need a debate on this and cannot have one. I have no issue with trans people whatsoever. I have serious issues with those appropriating the trans banner to centre their rights yet again over women's.

[AdalindSchade]

Yes, Miranda is called both truscum and terf. Bonkers really.

[WombOfOnesOwn]

Yes, many gender-critical dysphoric transwomen are called both terms. If a woman (cis, natal, regular, whatever you'd like to call it) says the same truscum things, though, she's generally just called a TERF, to save everyone time.

That's why even mentioning vaginas will get you described as "a bit TERFy" on Twitter, even if you didn't say word one about them being associated with womanhood -- but especially if you do, because the idea that someone who claims womanhood should at least wish they had a vagina is transphobic in the extreme and you should rethink before you contribute to someone's death.

lgbtweekly.com/2017/11/09/is-transphobia-lite-dangerous-tdor-is-a-good-time-to-reflect-on-it/

As far as LGBTWeekly is concerned, if you're even a teensy bit transphobic, like believing that kind of association between vaginas and womanhood, you're partially to blame for trans murders.

[BatShite]

anti-trans screaming? Do you have any examples of this?

Such a shame that so many women care about their own rights, and the health of kids, and yes, even the lives of transsexual people. All 3 of these groups are harmed by transactivists and the ideology itself.

[DN4GeekinDerby]

I get you PullUp, it can be a total mindfuck to really want to be a good person and not hurt others and help others and then... the path and goalposts suddenly seem to have led to a completely unknown different place.

I've had dysphoria as long as I can remember, well before that was what it was called. I was 7-8 the first time I talked about having a sex change and how it was going to make everything better. I lived passing as male in my late teens (and still get mistaken for a man, even had people argue with me about it when I was a couple weeks from my due date...). Back in my younger days, the entire movement was entirely different. None of us thought we were or would actually become the other sex, the "in the wrong body" wasn't so literal but was just a short way to explain the very complicated emotions and thoughts going on in our heads about our bodies and society and the best of a worst situation of how we wanted to seen and treated and how to fit.

The "being true to myself" has become a trap. I've had people go on at that I will never be "authentically happy" and that I'm harming others if I can't personify myself into some sort of post-modern trans label. The whole idea that only certain people will understands ignores that pretty much everyone does not fit their sex role, that people have always been punished for that, and, to me, the TRAs over complicated entirely human emotions and pains to isolate people. Being true to myself should mean that how I am is fine regardless of my body and labels are to help describe my experience and find similar people, not define everything about me.

tiptop Pretty much every intersex activism organization has asked not be brought into the subject of trans issues and gender. There is no correlation between the two, intersex people are no more likely to be dysphoric than anyone else and most intersex conditions come with a lifetime of health problems that are brushed under the rug to try to use intersex people as debate pawns. It's a pretty rude way to use people.

[RosaTheOwl]

OP, you refer to the "process" of transitioning
As a TERF, my main concern is that, for adults, no "transitioning" is required.
So I'm wondering what you perceive as the "process".

[RosaTheOwl]

Sorry op you said this, but it implies a process of some kind, even just psych eval

"But I thought that was the whole cornerstone of going through transition etc??"

There's nothing to go through to self identify as trans.

[PullUpTheTERF]

DN4 Thank you for sharing, that's some real food for thought.

Rosa that's a good point. I guess I've just always heard the word 'Transitioning' when used to describe the process (first heard it on the TV Series The L Word if anyone remembers it)

I have particularly been comparing the 'self identifying' logic to me suddenly coming out as, for example, African American, and the outcry that would rightly incur.
(First heard it on this forum obvs )

[SylviaPoe]

'Sylvia it has come at a personal cost to me at times, I've been shouted at at a No more page 3 signature gathering and I have a stonewall t-shirt which I wore on the tube and someone called me a f***. '

I would not consider that to be the level of personal cost for someone involved in activism to have.

It would be more like a criminal record for acts of civil disobedience, and having lost friendships for standing up for people's rights.

I have a lot of sympathy for your situation, because it is hard to disagree with people whom you share common ground with, but it is happening all across left wing and liberal groups.