I don't want to be a TERF

[PullUpTheTERF]

Please help.

I've NC'd for this because, well, obviously. I assure you I am a regular poster on many forums on MN, including Feminism.

Bit of back story; I am a loud and proud leftie feminist, massively pro gay rights, I am known in my circle of friends (I've been told) as being a champion for minorities, I've been to 12 gay prides and counting.

Being on this forum (since way back when it was FWR) has exposed me to gender criticism and TERF idealogies.

And I wish it hadn't.

I find myself agreeing with some (please note - not all) posters who have explained the, seemingly many, issues with the trans movement.

I'll nod along to certain comments and then hate myself for doing so.

I feel like I could never say any of this in public.

I really don't want to start a bun fight.

I'd really like to hear from some pro trans people specifically with some counter arguments.

I worry about going against gender stereotypes being labelled and parcelled as Trans.
My DS wanted a pink phone and my DMIL said he might want to transition when he's older. It infuriated me.
The thought of children having medical interventions really concerns me. I worry that someone can just say what they are and then they are that (but this doesn't extend to race, just sex)
I worry about female prisons and women only spaces being encroached. Can't believe I just said the word encroached.

But then I hear 'Being my true self' and 'Cis genders don't understand' and 'trapped in the wrong body's stuff and I feel awful.

I know if some of my friends knew about this they'd probably think I was a bigot.

I don't want to have these opinions anymore.
It puts me in the same camp as Trump FFS.

I hope this post is taken in the light it is intended.

[PullUpTheTERF]

Ah I see what you're saying Sylvia yes that makes sense. I suppose the experiences I've had are more of an unfortunate by product that anyone faces when sending a strong message in the public sphere.

[PullUpTheTERF]

Thank you for having sympathy though, I'm so relieved this thread is being taken in the light it was intended, I know what a divisive subject it can be a cake walk compared to AIBU

[DonkeySkin]

Adding to what womb has said about 'I am whatever I say I am' being THE position of the trans movement, we can see that this is evidently true from the laws that they are pushing for: trans rights groups across the world are explicitly pushing to get rid of 'gender reassignment' (i,e., medical transition) as a condition for trans status and to replace it with 'gender identity' (self declaration).

Tiptop's claim that this is a fringe position is demonstrably false, but it's easy to see why people are confused, given that the same trans groups that want to make it legal for any man to undress in female change rooms on the basis of self-declared identity are ALSO pushing transsexuality onto children. Trans groups and politicians are touting the GRA as a law designed to 'streamline and de-medicalise' the process of changing one's legal sex status - at the same time as they are pushing for ever more extreme medical interventions in the bodies of children deemed 'trans'.

It's a glaring contradiction, but the gender identity movement is full of such contradictions, and this incoherence is actually part of its strength. By occupying all positions at once, they prevent people from getting a real handle on their arguments, and can make whatever claim is most convenient for them at any given time. If that claim rests on transsexuality as a medical condition (children need to have their puberty arrested and their gonads shrivelled or they'll kill themselves!), they'll trot that out, and when it's inconvenient (some women have beards and penises and bigoted teenage girls need to get over their hangups and undress in front of them!) they'll ditch it. Sometimes I think the goal is to confuse everyone into submission.

[AdalindSchade]

Being 'trans' has nothing at all to do with transitioning now. This isn't niche, it's the mainstream position.

Being trans simply means not identifying with the (stereotypes of the) gender sex assigned observed at birth

So literally anyone who is uncomfortable with the expectations they feel as a man or woman and wants to present/express/identify with some aspects of the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex, whether that's related to outer appearance or personality traits, is transgender.

Eagle eyed people will spot that that includes pretty much every human.

[Ereshkigal]

Sometimes I think the goal is to confuse everyone into submission.

YY. It's very effective. I think the main reason they hate radical feminists is because like them or not, those arguments against trans ideology are so clear.

[Datun]

YY. It's very effective. I think the main reason they hate radical feminists is because like them or not, those arguments against trans ideology are so clear.

Radical feminism is nothing if not logical. That’s why it’s made so much sense to me.

I don’t think I’m more logical than the next person, but I can spot a logical argument when I see one. And it brings a huge sense of relief.

And yes about the contradictory nature.

Which means the ideology just ends up in a melting pot of anything goes, if I say it does.

Maybe that’s why feminists caught it so early. It’s reminiscent of abusive relationships everywhere.

[TammySwansonTwo]

Interesting pullup that you state gender is changing. I'd say gender WAS changing - women getting the vote, fighting for equal pay an equal rights (even if not fully achieving those things), being able to work and be the breadwinner rather than the stay at home parent, men being able to take the lead in parenting if they choose, clothing colours and toy choices no longer being specifically for one sex or the other.

But if anything things are now moving backwards - if a toddler boy likes openinghis sleepsuit so it looks like a skirt or a toddler girl wants to remove the hair clips from her head (yes, this was used as a signifier by an expert!) they're probably trans. Girls playing with action man? Probably trans. Boys playing with dolls? Probably trans.

This isn't progress. It's regression. It's entirely based on the ridiculous gender stereotypes that we've been fighting for so long and it's not helpful.

A while ago it was "don't conflate sexy and gender" and now we've progressed to "my penis is female because I'm really a woman". Where will be next year?

Women have had to fight hard for legal rights and for being female to be a protected characteristic. They legally can't be discriminated on the basis of sex when it comes to employment, access or anything else. What happens when men can freely and very simply decide that they are women now, just by filling In a form? How can you protect women?

And frankly I'm not concerned by legitimate trans people - their life, their body, they can do as they please and I wish them every happiness. But the trans movement has been overtaken by rampant misogynists who despise women and want to centre their male privilege and dominance over us.

If these particular men actually had to legitimately become women, and be treated as women are actually treated rather than as a feminised version with their male privilege still inherent and intact, it would never happen.

[TammySwansonTwo]

Furthermore, as I've mentioned before, I've actually been on the drugs they use as puberty blockers in young children - I was on this medication for two years in my mid 20s and it's no exaggeration to say is destroyed my health, my life, almost my marriage, my career and has taken me 10 years to begin to recover. I also believe it has caused a neurological condition which I'm still trying to prove since doctors have no interest.

I object to giving this drug to pre-pubescent children in the strongest possible terms, as would anyone who's actually had to fake them. I had already gone through puberty and was only on it for two years, and it still triggered and almost 10 year eradication of my libido, and introduced seemingly permanent health problems which are debilitating.

This is not a harmless manner in which to treat children, and doctors should know this. Many do I'm sure.

[SuperLoudPoppingAction]

I think some doctors and qualified experts are now starting to speak out.
However the lobbyists who have gained their position with no qualifications have gained quite a foothold now.

[SuperLoudPoppingAction]

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/01/transgender-people-can-end-badly-damaged-says-lord-robert-winston/amp/

Like this article. Although it ends with the usual thing about suicide.

Growing up as a lesbian in the 90s and also a teenage girl I did have suicidal thoughts. Hormone blockers would not have helped them. And I don't think there's any proof they help the children who are on them.

[SuperLoudPoppingAction]

articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2002/02/09/lupron-part-one.aspx
Not sharing this link for quality of evidence but to show there were concerns about lupron in 2002.

I do know mums of female children who take this medicine then testosterone, go through early menopause and to be honest this seems hellish on the mental health of already vulnerable young people.

I think anyone objecting to these practices is characterised as hateful unfairly. It's often genuine concern. Families going down this path are alienating themselves from anyone raising objections with their only support then coming from Mermaids or HCPs or other parents who have made the same choice.

[TammySwansonTwo]

Wish I'd read that before I went on it! It's mind boggling to me that it's portrayed as an easy and straightforward solution and that hey, you can just stop any time and puberty will start. Will it? Took a few years for my periods to return afterwards, and years more for other things to resolve, and ten years on still many ongoing issues. They can talk about feeling suicidal - how suicidal will they feel when they're an adult with no sex drive, probably no fertility, and potentially lifelong medical problems as a result?

[GuardianLions]

Something I find troubling about the OP and others who share sympathies because they are fairly steeped in trans ideology - is how much it resembles a cult.

And I know that people talk about 'drinking the kool-aid' in quite an offhand way, but I think the parents that give puberty blockers and harmful, life-changing, sterilising medicines to their kids are at not too far a remove psychologically from those parents who passed the cyanide-laced drink to their own kids in that final mass suicide. I can only imagine this counter-intuitive parental behaviour would happen with thorough brainwashing by psychopaths.

I've seen a lot of people wondering "who are they?" these people pushing the agenda behind everything? It is creepy how much sway a tiny minority has.

The fact that the trans cult has got so much rapid cultural traction through social media enabling very easy access and influence to huge numbers of all sort of vulnerable young people - kids with autism, young lesbians and gays, victims of sex abuse looking for answers, makes me genuinely fearful that these psychopath control freaks behind the movement are going to try to orchestrate a mass suicide protest when the truth starts closing in.

[GuardianLions]

Tammy

[RosaTheOwl]

Guardian "I've seen a lot of people wondering "who are they?" these people pushing the agenda behind everything? It is creepy how much sway a tiny minority has."

yes, and this crosses over into the whole thing about confusing people into it - mask it in so much language that no one knows what's going on.

that's the reason I always ask posters if they mean transsexual or transgender when they say "trans" - I think the word "trans" is probably confusing the issue at all levels.

OP I hope you are not still feeling bad about this. I don't think you are thinking like Trump. What you are asking is for, I think, is for transsexuals to be distinguished from transgender and that's a very reasonable ask.

[Lancelottie]

God, is that where 'drinking the kool-aid' comes from? I'd taken it to be 'going along with things to be a Cool Girl'.

Yuck.

[AshleySilver]

'Drinking the kool-aid' is a reference to the Jonestown Massacre in 1978 in Guyana. Hundreds of people died, including babies who where given the poisoned kool-aid in medicine syringes.

It was truly awful. Really disrespectful for the phrase to be used flippantly and their deaths to be trivialised like that.

[FlaviaAlbia]

Flavia That probably has a lot to do with it to be honest. I'm worried I will be misunderstood and shouted down.

It sucks holding an unpopular view sometimes. Supporting women's rights is not generally something that will gain you popularity or credits in the way (for example) that supporting gay marriage would.

But the damage that can and will be done by following the fashionable viewpoint that says debate is hate is not something that can be ignored once you realise it.

[PullUpTheTERF]

Tammy That sounds horrendous. Can I ask why you started taking them? I don't know if there's any other reasons other than to block puberty IYSWIM

Rosa - So to say transexual is to have genuine gender dysphoria, but transgender is more the 'I say I'm a woman so therefore I am' camp? Have I got that right?

[GuardianLions]

Agreed Lancelottie and Ashley it is utterly heartbreaking and doesn't bear thinking about.

But it is invariably men at the head of these cults isn't it? And it always starts out with the 'we accept all the broken and misunderstood people with our open arms'... then descends into oppressive control, then the harassment, naming and shaming of anyone who tries to escape. And I've noticed another theme is there is usually increasing and oppressive control of sexual activity between the cult members, with the cult leaders being the only ones with free reign... All the fucking lady dick for lesbians and everything - it all seems to follow the same pattern of male domination of the many by the few deranged psychopaths.

[RosaTheOwl]

OP, I don't know how these groups describe themselves but sort of....I mean, I get that if you have actually had medical treatment and surgery, you must really have wanted a change...but if someone says "I am transgender" I assume that they have had no treatment and are just going with their feelz, which means nothing to me.

the only transsexuals I know are very clear that they are transsexuals and have had full medical treatment because they don't want to be linked with the "feelz" camp. One even has a surgery video on her phone that she can show people!!

So when posters say "I am in favour of trans rights" - I don't know which they mean. I don't think transsexuals should suffer discrimination but I don't think transgender-because-feelz should be allowed to call themselves whatever it is they feel like being today, along with all the safety issues that involves.

[AshleySilver]

Yes it is another form of male domination. There are many parallels between the cults and common-or-garden abusive relationships.

[TammySwansonTwo]

Pullup there are many other reasons for them being prescribed. In my case endometriosis, but mostly used certain types of hormone responsive cancers (breast and prostate), and children going into very early puberty, although research shows this isn't very safe either.

In very simple terms, the drugs works on your brain to switch your ovaries off. It's extremely difficult for your body to reset itself after that, especially for some. It puts you into a pseudo menopause basically. Not sure what the side effects are in children who are pre-pubescent but for me the side effects were horrendous (severe hot flushes, mood swings, extreme weight loss, loss of breast tissue, hair loss, complete absence of libido, fatigue, memory loss, bone density loss etc). I honestly would never give this stuff to my children.

[GuardianLions]

these poor kids are like lambs to the slaughter

[Blanchefleur]

Isn't depression a side-effect of Lupron too? What impact is this having on children who are already depressed or suicidal?