I don't want to be a TERF

[PullUpTheTERF]

Please help.

I've NC'd for this because, well, obviously. I assure you I am a regular poster on many forums on MN, including Feminism.

Bit of back story; I am a loud and proud leftie feminist, massively pro gay rights, I am known in my circle of friends (I've been told) as being a champion for minorities, I've been to 12 gay prides and counting.

Being on this forum (since way back when it was FWR) has exposed me to gender criticism and TERF idealogies.

And I wish it hadn't.

I find myself agreeing with some (please note - not all) posters who have explained the, seemingly many, issues with the trans movement.

I'll nod along to certain comments and then hate myself for doing so.

I feel like I could never say any of this in public.

I really don't want to start a bun fight.

I'd really like to hear from some pro trans people specifically with some counter arguments.

I worry about going against gender stereotypes being labelled and parcelled as Trans.
My DS wanted a pink phone and my DMIL said he might want to transition when he's older. It infuriated me.
The thought of children having medical interventions really concerns me. I worry that someone can just say what they are and then they are that (but this doesn't extend to race, just sex)
I worry about female prisons and women only spaces being encroached. Can't believe I just said the word encroached.

But then I hear 'Being my true self' and 'Cis genders don't understand' and 'trapped in the wrong body's stuff and I feel awful.

I know if some of my friends knew about this they'd probably think I was a bigot.

I don't want to have these opinions anymore.
It puts me in the same camp as Trump FFS.

I hope this post is taken in the light it is intended.

[whoputthecatout]

I feel like I could never say any of this in public.
I really don't want to start a bun fight.

That is exactly what TRAs and their followers are banking on OP.
It's too late to faff about worrying what TRAs and their followers say about you.

Let scientific, biological and physiological facts rule. To hell with the unicorns, glitter, lady dicks and cotton ceiling brigade.

Does it matter if you are called a TERF? No.

Oh, and stop using the word "gender". Any original meaning of the word has been subsumed into "feelz". Cross out gender on forms and write "sex" instead. Stop referring to male or female gender when you mean sex. Speak up when other people refer to gender - say "do you mean sex?"

God knows, when the modern universe seems obsessed with sex why people find it so hard to say.

That will leave genuine body dysmorphic trans sexuals to live their lives in peace and as they want without their problems being hijacked by the lady dick and fetish brigade. Though I fear that, sadly, it may be too late and the enormous damage being done to children and young people with puberty blockers, hormone treatment etc. when they are still wet behind the ears will keep mental health professionals busy for decades in the future.

[DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus]

If you want to protect women's rights then you will rarely be seen as cool. Feminism, proper feminism, stands up for women and girls. It's a slog each day.day in,day out, like housework, bloody hard work. Women who fought for any rights have always been treated harshly 'cos patriarchy innit. We challenge the system so that women and girls benefit. We are now fighting to hold ground won by our grandmothers and just like them we get called names. Witch. Bitch. Terf.

[GuardianLions]

It is worth remembering how transactivism/political harassment began alicedreger.com/in_fear

[Panicattheschoolgate]

I feel you but for me, the majority of the trans movement is taking women’s rights backwards. Unfortunately you have to have the name TERF if you express that.

[IndominusRex]

It's nothing like Trump.

None of us could care less if a man wants to wear a dress, wear make up, go by a feminine name, etc etc.
Why would we? It's challenging sexist stereotypes which is brilliant.

We do care if someone says that dresses and make up etc are what make someone a woman because that instead REINFORCES sexist stereotypes.
We do care about giving men access to female safe spaces.
We do care about protecting women's rights.
We do care about women's sport.
We do care about not changing language around maternity and women's health issues.
We do care about protecting kids.

And most of us care about protecting people with dysphoria which must be horrible, but we will not facilitate men with autogynephilia who just want to get off on our discomfort.

[IndominusRex]

Few examples for you:

Grayson Perry: good
David Bowie: good
Boy George and all other glam rockers/New Romantics/ goths : good
Miranda Yardley: good

Paris Lees - wants to be catcalled because it's validating: bad
Kellie Maloney - tried to kill wife and said gays should be killed: bad
Danielle Muscato - 'suck my dick' : bad
Anyone who cries cotton ceiling : bad

It's really not hard.

[IndominusRex]

1990s Eddie Izzard 'it's my dress I'm wearing it' : good
2017 Eddie Izzard 'on boy days I like football and on girl days I like shoes, also screw you frightenedd young girls' : bad

[stitchglitched]

I get called a TERF on twitter, often by so called leftie men who tweet stuff about how we must believe and listen to women, support MeToo etc. Until a woman expresses an opinion about their rights being undermined by transactivists and then they disbelieve women, belittle their concerns and call them names.

TERF is just a way for (mainly) men to shout down and insult women in an 'approved' way. Calling women names and giving them abuse would normally make them look bad but doing it in defence of the trans agenda is perfectly acceptable, and encouraged.

Men who shout TERF are usually either misogynists who have found a politically correct means of abusing women or disenfranchised losers who have found a way to belong and get lots of likes. The women who call other women TERF are usually desperate for male approval and will throw other women under the bus to get it.

They can call me a TERF as often as they like, they have no argument because you can't argue with biology.

[BahHumbygge]

The sex and gender discourse is a three way ideological split... it's not a linear left - right division with Trumpesque bigots on one side and woke progressives on the other. Many on the left are critical of gender, and see it as an oppressive violent hierarchy in much the same way as race and social class that needs abolishing, not just reforming to make it a bit more evened up. A similar materialist class analysis that can be done for race and social class also applies to the system of gender, which radical feminists see as being a structure used to subjugate and subordinate the on the basis of materially observed biological sex. The root, the radix, of women’s oppression is our (perceived or actual) reproductive capability. Nothing more, nothing less. Certain assumptions are made on the back of that… baby brain, PMT hormonalness, hysteria (wandering wombs and all that)… all on the basis of perceptions of biology again.

Radical feminism acknowledges that we are a sexually dimorphic species for the purposes of reproduction, but outside of the nine months of pregnancy and up to maybe a year or two after birth, men and women should be considered the same for all intents and purposes in social, political and occupational spheres (bar a few exceptions like sport with physiologically based differences in potential and jobs with brute force heavy lifting). And women’s right to safe space away from XY folk should be sacrosanct while #metoo is still a thing.

It’s perfectly possible and indeed desirable to support trans rights… but, crucially, as a discrete group with discrete needs and legal protections. All general human rights should apply to trans people, eg right to housing, education, employment without discrimination, freedom from harassment etc. But transwomen have different needs from natal women. How many transwomen are denied an abortion, birth control, breast feeding breaks etc. Denied promotion for being a newly married 25 year old… huge maternity leave risk red flag for dinosaur employers. What transwomen suffer comes under the umbrella of homophobia, not misogyny.

As a thought experiment, put a pre-surgical transwoman alone on a desert island, with no cultural artefacts. Do likewise with a natal woman. What are they objectively? There is no way to discern what their gender is. Sex on the other hand would be glaringly apparent. Point being that it is only around other people that our status and group identity is formed. Transwomen rely on natal women as a blueprint for their identity formation and ideation, both at a cultural level and physical form… IOW stereotypes. In no other civil rights minority discourse is this an issue. Black people are black in their own right. Diabetic people are diabetic in their own right. Left handed people are left handed in their own right… their status stands alone and objectively without needing reference to others. ‘Man' means something. ‘Woman’ means something. As radical feminists, people like me object to being coercively grouped with members of the oppressor class (males) on the basis of a subjective, ethereal, nebulous and subjugatory concept like gender that I utterly repudiate. Gender is a cultural outgrowth of the patriarchy. Biology is why women are oppressed and gender is how. Gender upholds the norms, customs and stereotypes created by the patriarchy that hold women as a class subordinate. Abolish gender... let everyone choose their mode of dress, interests, occupation etc completely decoupled from their genital configuration.

[FactsAreNotMean]

With the Trump thing, I don't think the views are exactly close anyway but two groups of people can have objections to the same thing for totally different reasons.

Let's say, I dunno, zoos
-lots of animal welfare campaigners object to them because they think the conditions are poor and the animals should be roaming free
-game hunters object because they can't get to the animals in there to shoot them

[Albadross]

I’ve realised in the last few days that the reason this has happened to so many of us who would normally be champions of minority’s rights it’s because the ask is not reasonable. To draw a parallel with disability rights, legislation only covers things like workplace adjustments that are deemed to be reasonable - I.e. they don’t benefit the person but not the business and they certainly don’t result in a negative outcome for the business. What trans lobbyists are demanding is not at all reasonable because it puts other minorities at a disadvantage.

The current laws are already reasonable enough but this has started being about more than simply ending discrimination - it’s about the power of the few over the many and that’s not how democracy is supposed to work.

The moment you realise who you cannot criticise is the moment you realise who is ruling over you.

[ButtonLoon]

I could've written your post, OP.

I got swayed a bit.

But then I thought about all my trans* friends, and how none of them want to invade spaces, or take women's (or men's) places.

I thought about how a vocal minority on both sides is driving the conversation and the rage.

I got upset about how MN feels like it's been taken over by trans-exclusionists, and I pretty much left because it felt like a thousand paper cuts of micro aggressions.

Thank you for posting.

[ButtonLoon]

And I do use the label TERF because I've got none other to use. And I am a feminist, I'm not gay, I'm not trans*, and I'm not a man.

[IndominusRex]

Button - I think all of us are totally fine with trans people who don't want to take places and invade spaces. We are just trying to stop those who do.

[PullUpTheTERF]

Thanks for the responses, I'm going to read through them all properly when I get a chance.

I 100% promise that I am totally genuine and have good intentions. I debated long and hard about asking the question.

I'm pleased to see that these thoughts don't make me exclusionary

And to the PP asking about my MIL, yes I swear to you that happened and she said he was probably going to be gay because he wanted to wear my hair extensions

[qumquat]

There is no such thing as a TERF, just as there is no such thing as a slut, witch, feminazi etc. They are all terms whose purpose is to shame women into keeping in line. Of course you don't want to be a TERF, TERFs are evil after all. The term has done its job on you. Keep reading and thinking for yourself.

[NetflixandBill]

I feel like you do, OP.

FWIW i believe that gender dysphoria exists and that some people experience it and would benefit from surgery etc.

I also feel however that in the current climate, far more young people who feel that they do not fit the typical gender stereotype are more likely to consider (and possibly conclude) that they might be transgender rather than gay, lesbian or simply have non gender stereotypical tastes in fashion for instance.

I have a friend in his 40s who is in a same sex relationship. He also enjoys wearing bright eye make-up. He is regularly asked if he is trans. Why can’t he just be a man who likes eye make up?

[qumquat]

Are you familiar with Miranda Yardley OP? You might like reading her writing on this issue as she's a transsexual who does not agree with child transition or male bodied people in female spaces. She is of course decried as a TERF, even though she is trans.

[terryleather]

BahHumbygge

I'd like to raise a glass to your post!

[Datun]

Unfortunately, OP, you’re not dealing with the rights of trans-people to express themselves, you’re dealing with an ideology.

The purpose of transgenderism was to help those with gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is now a dot in the distance. And just about to be written out of the narrative altogether. By transactivists themselves.

If you don’t believe someone can change sex and there such a thing as a female penis, that lesbians should embrace lest they be bigoted, you are a terf.

As is 99% of the population. They just haven’t all been asked yet.

You can support people with gender dysphoria to express themselves as they wish.

But if you can’t support the rest of the bonkers ideology including the erosion of women’s rights and the medicalisation of children, you will be called a terf.

Transactivists have made it impossible to be supportive unless you shoot yourself in your own foot and are happy for the bullet to ricochet into the toes of 10-year-olds.

They have made it impossible to do anything other than pick a side.

If it’s any consolation, the men who will berate you and vilify you are those with sexual fetish. It doesn’t tend to come from genuine transsexuals, those with gender dysphoria.

So in that regard, you are absolutely standing up for something that should not be up the question.

The hurtful part is when women, who don’t understand the difference, pile on as well.

If you are encountering trouble in real life all I can suggest is that you ask those questions. What about men with autogynephilia? What about the erosion of homosexuality, particularly lesbianism.

Many people sit up if they think it involves a fetish, or if they think it goes against gay pride.

Meanwhile women children are considered less important.

[ButtonLoon]

The trouble is there is so much anti-trans screaming on MN that all the moderate voices get drowned out, or they just go away. like me.

[SuburbanRhonda]

And to the PP asking about my MIL, yes I swear to you that happened

It was the “do you think he’ll transition when he’s older” comment - I wouldn’t have thought an older person would use that terminology.

[SuburbanRhonda]

Transwomen rely on natal women as a blueprint for their identity formation and ideation, both at a cultural level and physical form

Excellent point. I hadn’t thought about that.

[Datun]

Transwomen rely on natal women as a blueprint for their identity formation and ideation, both at a cultural level and physical form

Yes they do, but only a man’s version.

You don’t see men wanting to transition because they can’t wait to pick up socks, take care of elderly parents, and write all the Christmas cards.

Because they can do that anyway.

We had a transwoman on here last year who stuck around for an awful long time and answered a lot of questions (although studiously, not all).

In hindsight, I think he was probably AGP, but very determined to mask it.

One of the things that stood out for me was that after being repeatedly asked what it was about being female that he so wanted, he said he could be more ‘vibrant’.

Because, you know, that’s what being a woman is. Vibrancy.

[SuburbanRhonda]

“Vibrant”?

FFS