I don't want to be a TERF

[PullUpTheTERF]

Please help.

I've NC'd for this because, well, obviously. I assure you I am a regular poster on many forums on MN, including Feminism.

Bit of back story; I am a loud and proud leftie feminist, massively pro gay rights, I am known in my circle of friends (I've been told) as being a champion for minorities, I've been to 12 gay prides and counting.

Being on this forum (since way back when it was FWR) has exposed me to gender criticism and TERF idealogies.

And I wish it hadn't.

I find myself agreeing with some (please note - not all) posters who have explained the, seemingly many, issues with the trans movement.

I'll nod along to certain comments and then hate myself for doing so.

I feel like I could never say any of this in public.

I really don't want to start a bun fight.

I'd really like to hear from some pro trans people specifically with some counter arguments.

I worry about going against gender stereotypes being labelled and parcelled as Trans.
My DS wanted a pink phone and my DMIL said he might want to transition when he's older. It infuriated me.
The thought of children having medical interventions really concerns me. I worry that someone can just say what they are and then they are that (but this doesn't extend to race, just sex)
I worry about female prisons and women only spaces being encroached. Can't believe I just said the word encroached.

But then I hear 'Being my true self' and 'Cis genders don't understand' and 'trapped in the wrong body's stuff and I feel awful.

I know if some of my friends knew about this they'd probably think I was a bigot.

I don't want to have these opinions anymore.
It puts me in the same camp as Trump FFS.

I hope this post is taken in the light it is intended.

Datun I remember that poster.

Bahhumbygge excellent post!

Buttonloon, And I do use the label TERF because I've got none other to use - I can help you out there. The correct, polite, neutral phrase is "gender critical feminist". That works pretty well, and isn't actually an insult, unlike terf.

Pullup, I think a lot of people started out where you are. Some stay there. Some move into a more gender critical space. There's a common misconception that people start off bigoted about trans people, then read a load of stuff that cements that view. Actually for your average Guardian reading type (me included) what happens is that you reflexively align yourself with the underdog and are uncritically pro-trans. Until something happens (Caitlyn Jenner's woman of the year award for me) that makes you think, "hey, hold on a second", then you do some reading, find out what transactivists actually want and suddenly the emperor has no clothes...or, for some people, the cognitive dissonance is too much, and they turn aggressively pro-trans, and just start yelling and trying to shut down debate.

It's hard to say "I've changed my mind". It took me a lot of wrestling, but now I'm happy to say it: I changed my mind. And I'm good with that. I got more information and it changed my view.

Bit of back story; I am a loud and proud leftie feminist, massively pro gay rights, I am known in my circle of friends (I've been told) as being a champion for minorities, I've been to 12 gay prides and counting.

Have you honestly asked yourself how much of your reluctance to accept being gender critical is about not wanting to lose this reputation or lose face with friends and perhaps lose some of them if they don't accept your point of view?

Tiptop not really
Disorders of sexual development are still rare and they are disorders
The fact that medical science now understands these disorders better does not mean they are 3rd or 4th or Xth sexes. There are 2 sexes with a very small number of outliers with a developmental disorder.

concepts of sex are also subject to change

Put 100 mice in a tank and about 50% of them will impregnate the other 50% who will then give birth to offspring.
This isn't a 'concept'. Concepts of sex are not 'changing'.

adalindscahde no they arent always 'disorders' they were traditionally thought of as such because it was thought those people would struggle to fit in socially so they would be given surgery to appear more like one gender or the other. This is how much societal views effect science. Children were given surgery they didnt medically need and a gender was chosen for them. Yes the fact that science understands these situations better now does mean that definitions might change. It certainly means that now days they do not preform these surgeries until the child is old enough to understand them and consent to them.

Exactly, adalinde.

Intersex conditions are disorders of sexual development. They don't mean that humans are not generally sexually dimorphic. It's not a sliding scale between male and female: there are males with intersex conditions and females with intersex conditions.

And none of it has anything in the slightest to do with being trans.

I am happy to be a TERF if it means I think a)lesbians should be allowed to choose who they want to have sex with, b) amazing women from the past are not retrospectively identified as trans,c)women do not have to compete in sport against male bodied people d)the numbers of women committing crimes are not artificially inflated by the inclusion of trans women in the statistics.

people who are born men could end up being able to give birth

I hope that this will never, ever happen. The ethics of what unknown and unknowable trauma and intervention you would have to subject the foetus to are so mind bogglingly unethical I don't know where to start.

adalindscahde

It wouldnt be 50% would it. Some of them just wouldnt mate for whatever reason. Its certainly not clear cut in the animal kingdom. And the actual behaviour is not the concept the naming and framing of that behaviour is the concept.

They are literally disorders
That's what they are. It's not a value judgement to say so.
Don't nitpick on my numbers for goodness sake. The FACTS are that mammals are sexually dimorphic, with males impregnating females who birth offspring.

And the actual behaviour is not the concept the naming and framing of that behaviour is the concept

What does that mean? Sexual reproduction is a fact. The 'framing of the behaviour' sounds suspiciously like what I understand to be gender. Which is not the same as sex.

Agree Bertrand half of this is about men wanting a new way of holding back women in whatever way they can

sophoclesthefox
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/02/male-and-female-what-is-it-like-to-be-intersex

No they arent all either male or female.

Being intersex is incredibly rare

Approx 1% according to recent data.
That's a whole other issue.

people used to say there werent any gay animals and use that as a statement to back up homosexuality as unnatural and being a lifestyle choice.

The concept is that humans created the terms 'male and female' and decide on their uses. Im nitpicking your numbers because those animals that do not mate could be not mating for any number of reasons. Some of which may be that they are not actually the sex they are assumed to be. What im saying is that yes, mammals tend to break into two groups that we could label with sexes but its not all of them. We just dont know whats going on with some of them so it doesnt really prove anything. If it was 50/50 constantly then it might. but its not.

mrskeats yes its another issue but it relates in the fact that some of these people are saying they are neither male nor female and actually they arent born specifically male or female. So that adds weight to the argument that maybe we do have more than two sexes. It may be a very small number but it does exist and it does show that sex is not always clear even if you are just looking at genitals.

No biology decided our uses or we would be extinct wouldn't we?
You are clutching at straws now tiptop

I don't think that article supports what you're saying at all, tiptopteepe.

And in any event, many if not most intersex people are quite distressed at their conditions being co-opted in support of trans issues, which are completely separate. It's pretty disrespectful to them to try to conflate the two. Intersex charities campaign for children to be left alone until they're old enough to make decisions for themselves. Trans activists do the opposite.

What has intersex got to do with trans? Your trans friend is not intersex, they are biologically male and now present as feminine.

A leading scientist, researcher, campaigner and advocate for people with intersex conditions (also someone who I think coined the term 'disorders of sex development) had this blog to write when the early transactivists started harassing and intimidating her colleagues: alicedreger.com/in_fear

I know I already posted it, but I think tiptop you might find it enlightening..

Flavia That probably has a lot to do with it to be honest. I'm worried I will be misunderstood and shouted down.

Sophocles that's exactly how I've been feeling. The Caitlyn Jenner thing was a big lightbulb moment for me

Additionally - I believe the majority of people with intersex conditions are actually infertile - so these conditions don't count as a different reproductive 'sex' per se, they are disorders of sex development.

pullup what helped me with easing the cognitive dissonance of seeing myself as an ally of the marginalised while also being gender critical was to understand the quite profound misogyny and homophobia that lies at the heart of much of transactivism.

I sided with women, with lesbians, with gender non conforming young boys who might grow up to be gay. Also with traumatised young girls who want to opt out of being over -sexualised or abused, and the autistic kids, and the vulnerable people being swept up...these are the collateral damage of transactivism. So these are the people I side with, want to protect, want to use my voice in defence of. I'm still an ally.

Just so you know, OP, today's leading edge of transactivism calls all the "born in the wrong body" and dysphoria stuff being "truscum." Thinking a trans person should have any of these distinct "wish I had a different body" feelings before declaring themselves the opposite sex is now anathema in mainstream trans circles.

In other words, even your extremely considerate way of viewing dysphoric conditions and feelings of being born in the wrong body are now outre, and described as "scummy," and roundly denounced as "transmedicalist" by modern activists. So even if you're not a TERF, you're probably truscum according to them. Isn't it nice what our options are when we don't go along with the furthest fringe of narcissistic males 100%?