I don't want to be a TERF

[PullUpTheTERF]

Please help.

I've NC'd for this because, well, obviously. I assure you I am a regular poster on many forums on MN, including Feminism.

Bit of back story; I am a loud and proud leftie feminist, massively pro gay rights, I am known in my circle of friends (I've been told) as being a champion for minorities, I've been to 12 gay prides and counting.

Being on this forum (since way back when it was FWR) has exposed me to gender criticism and TERF idealogies.

And I wish it hadn't.

I find myself agreeing with some (please note - not all) posters who have explained the, seemingly many, issues with the trans movement.

I'll nod along to certain comments and then hate myself for doing so.

I feel like I could never say any of this in public.

I really don't want to start a bun fight.

I'd really like to hear from some pro trans people specifically with some counter arguments.

I worry about going against gender stereotypes being labelled and parcelled as Trans.
My DS wanted a pink phone and my DMIL said he might want to transition when he's older. It infuriated me.
The thought of children having medical interventions really concerns me. I worry that someone can just say what they are and then they are that (but this doesn't extend to race, just sex)
I worry about female prisons and women only spaces being encroached. Can't believe I just said the word encroached.

But then I hear 'Being my true self' and 'Cis genders don't understand' and 'trapped in the wrong body's stuff and I feel awful.

I know if some of my friends knew about this they'd probably think I was a bigot.

I don't want to have these opinions anymore.
It puts me in the same camp as Trump FFS.

I hope this post is taken in the light it is intended.

[AssignedPerfectAtBirth]

WTF is that article? Mind blown

[JetCityWoman]

GuardianLions I thoroughly recommend future learn. They have a wide range of free courses. I dip into the site a lot. Every now an again they have some courses on feminism and so does Open Culture.

excellent post talking

[TalkingintheDark]

Thank you all for the feedback, it's good to know I'm striking a chord with others. I do think it's so important to reclaim (or reforge) our lefty social justice identity somehow and not let this tag of bigot stick.

We know we're not bigots, we know we're acting from the right motives, we know that the people smearing us are actually the ones who have no regard for many of the most vulnerable in society, however much they claim the high ground and posture as SJWs.

We don't oppose TRA ideology because of transphobia, we oppose it because of feminism, because of wanting to protect the vulnerable, and to promote a safer, fairer world. It's important that we reflect that back to each other when there's such a concerted campaign to discredit us as part of the whole silencing tactic.

[Nyx1]

I don't even understand some of the articles linked here. I have no idea what they are saying.

is that part of the "confuse people into submission" or am I thick?!

[Datun]

Nyx1

I’m sure you’re not thick!

Partly, it’s because it is quite confusing. Secondly it is because it’s deliberately presented that way.

Ask if there is anything you don’t understand.

I’m a firm believer in clarity and simplification.

[Nyx1]

it's the social experiment and Donna Summer stuff that baffled me.

However, I'm happy to see the Times articles linked - there's some sense going on somewhere, which is a relief!

[Nyx1]

Talking "We don't oppose TRA ideology because of transphobia, we oppose it because of feminism, "

but do we? I mean, even if not a feminist - the issue is biology isn't it?

I think if this issue is going to be recognised as the major problem it is, then it needs to be talked about outside of a feminist angle, because so few women are feminists?

[Datun]

Nyx1

I think if this issue is going to be recognised as the major problem it is, then it needs to be talked about outside of a feminist angle, because so few women are feminists?

I agree. But it is getting there.

One of the reasons why feminists were so quick to get it, is because their skill in spotting misogyny at fifty paces is highly refined.

Most of them are fully aware of how our system as had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accommodating women’s specific needs and rights. And they know all the tips and tricks of how this is constantly undermined.

All the young women currently exercising those rights don’t always get that.

What I have seen happening is that people do tend to have a wtf moment over the more ludicrous claims of transactivism. So they start looking, come across feminist sites, and get an instant crash course in feminism 101.

I have seen numerous accounts of women who say this specific issue has turned them into radical feminists overnight.

But you don’t have to be a feminist to understand the issues.

You don’t have to be a feminist to know that one cannot change sex.

You don’t have to be a feminist to know that there are predators and chancers everywhere, and eroding sex protected spaces for women is only going to go one way.

[GuardianLions]

Nyx1

By Donna Summer stuff - are you referring to the Alice Dreger article? The reason I linked to it is because it is relevant to the beginnings of aggressive transactivism (doxxing, threats, etc) .

Alice Dreger (who is an advocate for intersex people within academia) wrote this long article detailing the way academic research was being hampered by harassment and silencing, and began accepting lies/allowing witch hunts, by a few named AGP (Autogynophile) MTTs within academia, early on, before it all really blew up to the out of control situation we find ourselves in now.

The Donna Summer example, was about Bailey (researcher who first proposed the idea of 'autogynophelia') who was harassed and was the first real notable victim in the witch hunt (people didn't want to be associated with him or defend him in case they were themselves targeted - very much how it is today for gender critical people).

Anyway, the Donna Summer thing - was Alice Dreger speaking about an obvious AGP Chuck/Angelica (who was named in Baileys research 'Kieltyka'), who believed his transformation from male into female was like a Native American transformation, and all of his clear sexual fetish items - women's underwear, etc, were akin to Native Americans using eagle feathers etc, in rituals.

This is basically a crazy self-justification of a man with a sexual fetish wanting to be a woman as the ultimate turn-on, drawing on New Age and pomo ideas.

I referenced that, because a lot of the current pomo bullshit swallowing that is going on, has a mystical, New Age edge to it - it is a great swamp on unscientific delusional crap, that transactivists are trying to force the rest of society to accept as true, and the pomo as well as the New Age has clearly been there at the beginnings of transactivist beliefs and the witch hunting of gender-critical people, from this example.

[DonkeySkin]

I think if this issue is going to be recognised as the major problem it is, then it needs to be talked about outside of a feminist angle, because so few women are feminists?

I agree. Magdalen Berns sums it up at the end of as:

'This is a women's rights issue, but it's not just a women's rights issue. It's a child protection issue, and it's a free speech issue. So ultimately it's a human rights issue. And if you care about human rights, you should care about this. Because if you cannot describe reality, how the hell are you supposed to defend your rights?'

[Nyx1]

Thanks for the clarification

I wonder if I can get help on another issue

There was a thread earlier - sorry I can't find it now - about a TED talk and someone was accused of "erasing" trans people.

Now, I believe that transsexuals exist (obvs!) and I believe in gender dysphoria, if that means feeling you're born in the wrong body. But it should be called biological sex dysphoria if that is what it means.

but now I'm hearing that transgender people don't believe in gender dysphoria. It's just "I identify as trans" and that's it.

but how can that be - they don't believe in the dysphoria either?!

[DonkeySkin]

but now I'm hearing that transgender people don't believe in gender dysphoria. It's just "I identify as trans" and that's it.

but how can that be - they don't believe in the dysphoria either?!

Nyx, the Magdalen Berns video I linked to above deals with exactly this issue. I highly recommend it, she explains it all so clearly.

[thebewilderness]

The accusation of "erasing trans people" is an application of the 3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

[MillicentFawcett]

This is a really great thread - thanks for helping me get my head round the pomo stuff (I'm a bit old for it)

[MillicentFawcett]

For anyone who hasn't read the posts that @GuardianLions linked to, here's an extract of how a TRA responded to Michael Bailey because he didn't like his book:
"She posted on the internet photographs of Bailey’s daughter and labeled her a “cock-starved exhibitionist.” James also claimed in her online publications that there “are two types of children in the Bailey household,” namely “those who have been sodomized by their father [and] those who have not.”

And in response to Dreger's request not to have someone who behaves like this speak at the university both she and Bailey worked at, she was harassed repeatedly by email: "Let me just say that her choice of the admonition “Bad move, mommy” suggested she is still interested in dragging people’s children (including now my own) into her intimidation tactics. Her further reference to my five-year-old son as my “precious womb turd” also suggested that she is astonishingly juvenile."

And this person is a well-known trans consultant, working in the media and on the board of TransYouth Family Allies. Transwomen get away with appalling behaviour that would kill most people's careers.

[GuardianLions]

Yes - targeting gender critical people's kids with such squirmingly horrific insults and threats. It is no wonder so few people have stuck their necks out until recently. Fuckers.

[TalkingintheDark]

Transwomen get away with appalling behaviour that would kill most people's careers.

Isn't that just the truth, Millicent?

And not only that, but when women point out this behaviour, we are STILL the bigots for deliberately digging up dirt on trans people!

I keep seeing it play out on Twitter - someone says categorically all transwomen are harmless balls of cute fluff, a woman says well actually some transwomen are a tad violent or predatory, 1st person demands proof, woman provides proof, 1st person instead of saying oh yes I was wrong, makes the bad things that some trans people do STILL somehow the fault of the woman, and yells at woman for not drawing a discreet veil over these unfortunate occurrences because "there are bad people in every group", and uses the fact that the woman has given the requested proof as proof only of... her "bigotry".

It's gaslighting 101.

[MillicentFawcett]

It’s like the whole transwomen in women’s prison discussion - no man would pretend to be trans just to access the women’s estate, don’t be ridiculous. Transwomen are women and it’s transphobic of you to suggest any different. Of course they should be housed in the place that aligns with their gender.

Ian Huntley? Of course he’s not really trans, don’t be silly.