Some sort of campaign being organised against MN

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

There are rumblings on Twitter about MN transphobia. Mermaids mention something about a press release.

If anything comes of this I hope MNHQ will ignore.

Here is the thread
mobile.twitter.com/PHE_uk/status/913066381779832832

As far as I can see TRAs just make things up, then expect everyone else to agree that their opinions are true facts. It's kind of science Vs religion, and thus is extremely hard to resolve.

This.

I'm surprised it hasn't kicked off with an invasion before now, tbh. I think that suggests that it's the TRAs in the echo chamber.

For that matter, it is outrageous that gender critical feminists get accused of being in an echo chamber when genuine direct questions get repeatedly ignored and TRAs have a block list, ffs.

That TransDad is making it seem as if we have all completed a survey specifically about trans health

It's rubbish isn't it - words mean things. If you give a definition, then sorry, just because you don't like that I fit it, doesn't mean I don't.

I look forward to my transwomen sisters campaigning for my health care needs (sisters not cisters right?!) - my right not to have a consultant rummage around in my vagina and give me a sweep when I've explicitly told him that I don't want one, and told him to stop while he was doing it would be a good start.

If you give a definition, then sorry, just because you don't like that I fit it, doesn't mean I don't.

Exactly. If the definitions are so vague and woolly most of us fit them. If we don't identify as "cis" (and why should we) then we can be considered agender, non binary etc. And as pointed out many women here are lesbian or bisexual.

I think the post twitter referred to was some sort of survey - did it then tell you the % you were 'male or female' some how? (Or was that another one?

There was something like that a while ago - it was a nonsensical thing which IIRC identified nearly all of us as some sort of trans on account of stuff like wearing trousers and being able to answer maths questions.

I think as Quentin says that they are referring to the LGBT survey.

I see thanks, well I didn't see it. And there's plenty of LGBT people on mn. So a pointless complaint really.

I think that both sides of this debate are bigoted.

The trans lobby is becoming ludicrously powerful. Clearly there is an element of hysteria when, in some schools, 30% of a 6th form might consider themselves trans. Equally it is clearly wrong for a bearded six foot man to enter a women's safe space because he says his name is Amy!! Finally it is wrong for a man with high levels of testosterone to participate in women's sport.

On the other hand, the idea that there is zero difference between male and female brains is not the established fact it is portrayed to be on this board. Neither is cordelia Fine the top global expert in this area. It would be nice to see some more tolerance on both sides of the debate.

As far as I can see TRAs just make things up, then expect everyone else to agree that their opinions are true facts. It's kind of science Vs religion, and thus is extremely hard to resolve.

It reminds me of the flat earthers

larry this issue with your statement about the brains is that brains are on a huge spectrum. And not a continuous line with polar opposite ends (m v fm); more like a colour wheel or even a sphere. And what those brains are capable of doing is wide and varied. They're also very plastic. Experience moulds them. It's society that's 'assigned' these brains to a specific gender and gender to a specific sex. Brains are brains. And they can be washed too.

"On the other hand, the idea that there is zero difference between male and female brains is not the established fact it is portrayed to be on this board. Neither is cordelia Fine the top global expert in this area. It would be nice to see some more tolerance on both sides of the debate."

Similarities and differences in brains is irrelevant. I am a woman because I'm an adult human female, not because of the type of brain I have. When I'm being discriminated against or harassed its because I'm a women, not because of the type of brain I have. The only reason brains are mentioned is because that's MTT claim to womanhood.

You're not allowed to have a different view, Larry. They will write you off as transphobic and irrelevant however "reasonable" you think you are.

When I'm being discriminated against or harassed its because I'm a women, not because of the type of brain I have. in fact probably discriminated against because you have a brain exactly the same and more than capable of doing the same job, but you are a different sex.

Ek,

Of course brains are plastic and, again, of course there is a spectrum. However, I suspect, like most things there is an interplay of genetics and environmental influences. The idea that the Y chromosome has zero effect on the brain appears quite far fetched, too, as does the idea that different levels of testosterone do not affect brain development, even if only subtly.

We really do not (not sure we ever will) know how much of male and female characteristics are genetic and how much are environmental. The women who come on here and say they preferred lego to dolls and climbing trees to chatting (but are clearly female) are just as anecdotal as the transsexuals who assume that liking pink dresses meant that they were born into the wrong bodies.

There will be 'male' type women and 'female' type men. That is all great. However I think that some people may (and I use the word 'may' carefully) be born with a cognitive dissonance between their brains and biological sex is possible.

More research is needed and while I agree with most on here that female sexed people should have their spaces protected from those with male bodies, both sides should be listened to respectfully.

I really hate the phrase echo chamber. It started off as a useful concept, but now it just gets deployed as "I have thoughtfully assessed the data, but YOU have just been mindlessly led to a flawed conclusion that you're too thick to think your way out of". Yuck.

If there were multiple blockbots being deployed by feminists to stop us ever hearing from transactivists, then maybe I'd feel like there was something in it. But everyone gender critical that I know has spent quite a bit of time seeking out interactions with trans people on social media. Most of us WANT a debate. That is not reciprocated. It's impossible to do any basic online femininisting without getting on the TRA block list. They would make McCarthy blush in their zeal to root out anyone who ever might have had a gender critical thought.

Do you often find that calling people bigots leads to constructive debate, larry?

Well I do agree in that you
Can see a Brain as a spherical multi coloured spectrum and it's likely that during puberty hormones interplay a lot. It's likely there could be tiny differences in male and female children where it's more common for one trait over another to be sex linked (I teach Sen and most are boys for example) - however it's too complex to boil down to something as polarised as "male brain" and "female brain". Everyone is unique and shouldn't be made to feel they must conform to neat boxes.

More research is needed and while I agree with most on here that female sexed people should have their spaces protected from those with male bodies, both sides should be listened to respectfully.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that, larry. But research isn't happening - being blocked if its not deemed 'politically correct', feminists are 'no platformed' if they dissent from the trans ideology, or even get physically attacked.

But if "female" brains are inside males heads, then that means that the brain is found in male and females. same with traits, I don't understand when they say transwomen have female traits in their brains. If that trait is in a man's brain, then the trait belongs to both men and women. Plus, since when did we define sex by brains? We don't, and never have, so why have this invisible secret womanly thing that only the person knows is there as opposed to our bodies.

and why can't we open up what it is to be a man so feminine men can wear what they like, why does wearing a dress make them women? In the eighties all the blokes i knew wore make up, they didn't claim to be women. Surely that's healthier, no drugs, surgery or cognitive dissonance needed.

Damn,

The thing is, if you don't have that cognitive dissonance (and I don't) I suspect it is impossible to imagine. It is like we feel our legs are a part of us. Some don't. There are cases of people desperate to have their 'rogue' leg or arm amputated. Generally, when surgeons have amputated these people feel better afterwards.

Clearly trans people feel their bodies are alien to them. Equally clearly some are gay and in denial and some are taking the piss for personal advantage. I do think that some, though, have a genuine problem.

I think that, if you are not trans, you have to listen to how they feel.

I'm prepared to believe there's a reality to the biological sex of brains - probably heart size, lung capacity etc too - the same way there's biological reality to chromosomes, reproductive organs, physical size such as femur length, skull formation and pelvic formation, hormones, and ability to pass on DNA via reproduction. As far as I'm aware at present all the above can be seen on sight and on scans except brain.

Biological sex is objective fact irrespective of time, culture or place, and across the globe female humans are oppressed as a result of their biology. Roles, stereotypes, expectations etc are fluid, cultural and very highly varied. How one sex treats the other is based on the society, politics, language, social constructs etc.

Having a female sexed body does not create a biological imperative to perform what UK society has labelled as 'feminine interests', and has embodied and associated with weak, silly, inferior, less intelligent, vulnerable, etc etc etc. In matriarchal societies where women are expected to be the hunters and decision makers, they don't have a biological compulsion to wear pink and teeter on high heels. The biological imperatives for both sexes are around reproduction, based on reproductive capacity.

The pink/blue brain theory is an attempt to validate the claim that performing femininity or masculinity is a biological imperative. It clearly isn't. There have always been feminine men and masculine women.

I think that, if you are not trans, you have to listen to how they feel.

Absolutely. And respect that gender dysphoria must be a deeply distressing, uncomfortable condition.

Listening and compassion for a group of people having a hard time however is not logical grounds to surrender a century of women's rights, legally repress free speech and debate, legalise violence and do horrendous politically motivated and irreversible things to children too young to make informed choices. Who wins by doing that?

The brain claim is ridiculous, otherwise intersex people would always know which sex they are by their brain and their interests. Or there'd be an intersex brain, midway between male and female.

Validate violence, not legalise.