Some sort of campaign being organised against MN

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

There are rumblings on Twitter about MN transphobia. Mermaids mention something about a press release.

If anything comes of this I hope MNHQ will ignore.

I do think that some, though, have a genuine problem.

I absolutely agree, i do think that there is something in peoples brains that tells them they are in the wrong body...be it sex, fat or limb wise

But i dont agree and can't see it proved that all mens brains are different to all womens brains...from what ive read brains seem quite malleable

And at no point have the tree climbing females said they are men ir in the wrong bodies, just that their personality is different to a stereotype

Buckets,

Except that some research says they do scan differently (Uni of Pennsylvania: Verma et al).

The Science is still not settled on this.

But women have to pay a very high price. They have to place themselves in danger, devalue their sport, lose all rights to their language, privacy, dignity etc so that some people feel better.

So what about trans racial, why is that given short shrift but trans gender isn't? Surely we should listen to trans racial people too, and black people should budge up, they should listen.

I absolutely agree, i do think that there is something in peoples brains that tells them they are in the wrong body...be it sex, fat or limb wise

I'm also not convinced that the best way to treat this issue is to encourage them to modify their bodies.

Although I appreciate that larry probably wasnt saying that

Im tired and my brain seems to have pissed off somewhere much more interesting

its

No I absolutely agree with that

Except that some research says they do scan differently

But is that because of brain plasticity? I'm pretty sure you can't identify the sex of a new born from their brain...

There are cases of people desperate to have their 'rogue' leg or arm amputated. Generally, when surgeons have amputated these people feel better afterwards.

Larry, would you say this meant that these people were right, that the arm or leg didn't really belong to them, and that God/nature made a mistake and they should have been born without it? Or would you see the amputation as an attempt to alleviate the suffering of a person with a clearly very complex mental illness?

I don't think anyone here would say that dysphoria doesn't exist, or that an adult shouldn't have hormones or surgery if it would make their life better. Just that it still doesn't make them literally the opposite sex, because that's biologically impossible. These people, however, are known as 'truscum' to trans activists.

People with no dysphoria, who make no effort to physically transition, just say they're the opposite sex because of some undefinable gendered feeling, and believe that children as young as three who show preferences outside of culturally-defined gender stereotypes must be trans, though? Not the same thing.

Cancelly,

That is an interesting philosophical question, isn't it? Is the leg wrong or the brain wrong? To you, it is clearly the leg, to the owner of the 'rogue' leg it is clearly the leg.

Some of these people had years of psychological therapy before eventually amputating.

Is the diagnosis more important or giving distressed people a better quality of life? If the operation is the easier fix (and it clearly is for at least some), why not do it?

Do you agree with reducing the size of a fat person's stomach when 'all' they need to do is eat less?

The Science is still not settled on this.

Exactly. Which is why I said at present and I was prepared to believe it, before making the points I did that it really doesn't matter anyway.

The point is that biological sex does not compel performing any specific social role.

I also don't understand why having a penis or a vulva is supposedly absolutely not to be taken as dictating someone's sex or gender, but the pink/blue brain does? They're both organs, why is one to be believed over the other? Could it perhaps be because believing brains would be more convenient to the narrative than believing any other body part?

Larry, my point was that I'd agree that as a last resort, the amputation might absolutely be the right decision, for that person's overall mental wellbeing and quality of life. I'd have a lot of sympathy for that person, and understand their decision to amputate. But it still wouldn't mean that they were objectively right that the limb wasn't theirs.

Do you agree with reducing the size of a fat person's stomach when 'all' they need to do is eat less?

But that's different. A fat person is fat. A better analogy might be prescribing an anorexic slimming tablets.

Cancelly,

But I don't think anyone would say that, objectively, a trans woman's penis was not hers! It is clearly attached to him/her and he/she was clearly born with it.

We need to find a way to accommodate the genuinely trans while stopping the piss takers invading women's safe spaces and discouraging adolescents from rushing into medical treatments for what could be a short lived phase.

Accepting all trans is genuine is (imo) ridiculous. Equally saying that there is no such condition and it is all psychological illness does not seem right to me. There has to be a middle ground somewhere....although it is going to be awfully hard to find.

Yes, why is female biology irrelevant to being a female but something inside a mans brain which only he can feel is relevant?

To be fair I think there was a middle ground, then the trans activists got involved and started saying that trans women were actual biological women.

Damn,

That bit was covered by 'discouraging the piss takers'....A bearded man named jemima who insists he is in a lesbian relationship with his gf is clearly taking the Michael bliss....

Cognitive dissonance does nothing to support the idea of differences in male and female brains. All it tells you is that a particular individual holds 2 (or more) contradictory views on something and finds them both valid. We know that people experience gender dysphoria and that is generally accepted by most gender critical feminists.
To use the 'wrong' leg argument as an analogy, I think most people would agree that if someone had had their leg amputated then that could meet the definition of being disabled and that person should be entitled to the help etc that may come with that. But I don't think we'd all be able to agree that they'd always been disabled, even when they had 2 legs or that because they feel their leg is 'wrong' they deserve to be treated as though they are already disabled and be able to receive benefits/be able to obtain scholarships reserved for disabled people etc in the way that some transactivitsts argue for transgender people.

The problem is, can we ever go back? Transexuals have been living as women for years. Now (as there is no way to distinguish between the gender dysphoric, the AGPs, and the pisstakers) either sex segregation is fully enforced, with no "courtesy pass" for transexuals, which throws transexuals under the bus, or sex segregation is removed entirely, which throws women under the bus.

I genuinely can't see a reasonable middle ground.

Unfortunately we have to accept everyone at their word and all trans are lumped together. The man with the beard, true trans, the young girl sick of the role life has given her, a small baby who pops open their baby gro.

I thought that trans meant that you no longer had to be disphoric hence the male penis and the rise in male lesbians.

It does now, hence the problem. The government is unable to distinguish between sex and gender, what hope have we that they will be able to understand the !Assocs number of totally disparate things, all under the heading of trans

Itsall,

That is why we need more scientists in government!

We need to find a way to accommodate the genuinely trans while stopping the piss takers invading women's safe spaces and discouraging adolescents from rushing into medical treatments for what could be a short lived phase.

Yes... we could call the genuinely trans by a more specific term than the catch- all 'transgender' ... how about 'transexual'? And after careful assessment they might be allowed access to women's spaces. Oh, hang on....

Larry, you seem to be pretty much a TERF.

There is someone called Juno who says people should not be allowed to hide behind academic debates (on MN?). Academic debates are precisely what this topic needs - properly researched, peer-reviewed and highly analytical. You cannot hide behind an academic debate, you need to know your stuff. You can hide behind accusations of bigotry and transphobia though.

Well, quite. How can anyone hide behind an academic debate?