Irish referendum - abortion - should men vote?

[Schtinkay]

Fabulous news. Finally a referendum in Ireland to decriminalise abortion. About bloody time.

But should men be allowed to vote on an issue that is about controlling rights, freedoms and bodies of women?

I don't think so. Very interested in thoughts.

Have you seen what women are subjected to online for having opinions? Rape threats, death threats, doxxing, actual violence against a 60 year old woman recently that was incited online. But heaven forbid a man might be subjected to feminists discussing the issue of male violence.

No that's just dismissing the prolife argument to claim everyone who holds an alternative viewpoint is just anti-choice. I don't think pro life people are bothered about dictating to women what they can and can't do, it's the baby that's the concern

Fantastic post MadamMinacious.

I think people are forgetting that a woman's body being just that, her body - and a foetus not being a baby is a whole different argument altogether.

The the sake of this referendum, it's not relevant. Perhaps it should be. But it's not

Sorry but feminists often refer to men with so much venom and hatred as though they are al-qaeda terrorists. That's what pushes normal men away. And women like me who are in favour of equality. If you don't see the aggression, rudeness and hostility, look upthread at someone who said to me "oh do fuck off dear". I intend to, fear not!

The real problem here is surely that this should not be the subject of a referendum at all. It's not EU membership FFS, it's about fundamental human rights. If the right to control ones fertility is such a right - and I think it is - it doesn't matter a rats arse what the majority think, the right shouldn't be taken from you.

No they cant, thats the point of my post. Their GP will obstruct moving their medical record to another practice until it is too late

No. You don't need your medical record to go to another practice at all. You don't need a GP. You can self refer to any clinic.

Of course men should vote. It's called democracy. It's an issue many men will be affected by. Pregnancy takes two and if men are expected to bear responsibility they should rights as well.
There are plenty of issues put before parliament that don't affect everyone but to which they have a right to vote.

"Sorry but feminists often refer to men with so much venom and hatred as though they are al-qaeda terrorists."

Where are you hearing/reading this?

The real problem here is surely that this should not be the subject of a referendum at all

I don't think people are following what the referendum is for or why we need it. it's to repeal an amendment to the constitution that gave a foetus an equal right to life to a born person. It is not to decriminalise or allow abortion (though it is the precursor to that).
We HAVE to have a referendum to change anything about the constitution. We HAVE to have all eligable voters allowed to vote to do that. The entire point of this thread is moot and actually quite silly: this is a serious matter and such ephemera is pointless.

We need the referendum to repeal the amendment to the constitution. Which is what will happen. And THEN we can move on what the law will be, hopefully following the recommendations of the citizens assembly.

"Pregnancy takes two and if men are expected to bear responsibility they should rights as well."
What sort of rights do you think men should have when it comes to a woman's decision whether or not to have an abortion?

That's what pushes normal men away. And women like me who are in favour of equality.

I see you haven't responded to any of the points made about male violence suffered constantly by women and girls. Seems men and boys attacking women and girls regularly isn't "venom and hatred" to you.

No-one should be voting on this at all. There should be no referendum. Abortion rights should be implemented in Ireland without one.

Explain how?

I know it's very difficult to understand that different countries have different constitutional arrangements but that actually sometimes happens.

I know it's very difficult to understand that different countries have different constitutional arrangements but that actually sometimes happens.

No need to be patronising. I meant that's what I believe is right anywhere and people - women or men - shouldn't be voting on whether women and girls have abortion rights. I didn't mean that this is necessary possible in Ireland as I don't know about the constitution.

I meant that's what I believe is right anywhere and people - women or men - shouldn't be voting on whether women and girls have abortion rights.

Yes great, but that's not relevant now since this referendum is about undoing one that has already happened.

I meant that's what I believe is right anywhere and people - women or men - shouldn't be voting on whether women and girls have abortion rights. I didn't mean that this is necessary possible in Ireland as I don't know about the constitution

Well most of us think that in the abstract, but since that isn't the reality how is it of any use to anyone?

It really pisses me off that people treat this as some kind of theoretical debate...this is our lives, our rights, our laws. If you don't understand what it's all about, couldn't you learn before making pronouncements?

On that basis, the reality is that men would never be denied a vote on it so why debate that? I was making a comment on abortion rights which I care rather a lot about.

Of course men should be able to vote in this referendum. The clearest reason in my mind: men can potentially have to watch a partner die or suffer horribly from lack of abortion access. Like Savita Halapanaver's widower. Ireland's restrictive abortion law certainly affected him too.

It really pisses me off that people treat this as some kind of theoretical debate

How am I doing that? I've been to argue with the anti-choice campaigners who stand outside my local Marie Stopes clinic many times, including on my own, debated with groups of them, tried to support abortion rights as much as I can, how you've deduced I think it's a "theoretical debate" based on what I've posted is beyond me.

That, Nomad, and there's data to suggest they may be more likely to vote in favour of legalising abortion than women.

Nolove if you don't want to be patronised leave the thread. The irony for me is women being condescending to other women to presumably prove they are brighter instead of explaining things on a thread about rights of women!

Your last point is also very valid!

On that basis, the reality is that men would never be denied a vote on it so why debate that?

I already said that.

If you don;t understand WHY we need this referendum, you are treating it as a theoretical debate. Facts before opinions needed.

Thanks Threenme.

I thought opinions were part of discussing issues but okay. I very much hope the referendum has a result which might help progress towards granting abortion rights in Ireland.

Of course men should be able to vote men can be deeply affected by abortion. My husband ended up having counselling after an ex told him she'd aborted his child without telling him. However it's a stupid vote how can a religion dictate anything to anyone these days?

You can't see why people get frustratedNoLove?

It's been explained a few times now on the thread about constitution changes and how referendums are needed and then people come along and say things like "it's a stupid vote".

If you were having to constantly explain how (for example) the UK voting system works and why you couldn't just make new laws, wouldn't you eventually find it tiresome?