Irish referendum - abortion - should men vote?

[Schtinkay]

Fabulous news. Finally a referendum in Ireland to decriminalise abortion. About bloody time.

But should men be allowed to vote on an issue that is about controlling rights, freedoms and bodies of women?

I don't think so. Very interested in thoughts.

@QueenOfTheSardines the current law places a huge burden on medical professionals- literally nobody wanted that woman kept on life support. The current law is ridiculous and many doctors are afraid that if they veer from the letter of it they will face prosecution. However, politicians don't want to engage with the level of detail required as they'd much rather fudge the issue and appeal to as many constituents as possible. The same applies with fatal foetal abnormalities- most people, when faced with these issues, seem shocked the law prohibits women being treated by their regular doctors, but many of the same people don't want abortion on demand which will 'kill innocent babies'

Freedom of travel is a different issue- it's like saying we should drug test people returning from Amsterdam. However, there was a referendum on that issue because yes, the police did try to stop a teenager travelling for an abortion. Ultimately the people decided there should be absolute freedom of travel and information.

Yeah we have the right to travel.. the pro lifers don't want us to shit on our own doorsteps, better the problem is exported then they can say abortion doesn't happen in Ireland 😡

Why are women more opposed to abortion?

www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/apr/30/why-are-women-more-opposed-to-abortion?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

One of many, many articles and reports saying the same thing. I really don't think you can assume men will vote overwhelmingly against it and women for.

In the UK every poll I have seen puts women ahead in wanting to make abortion more restricted in the UK - and that is without the extra added input from the Catholic church.

I don't think anyone has said that men will vote against it and women for? The point is that some people feel that it is not appropriate for men to be involved in decisions about what women can and can't do with their own bodies. Whether they support or oppose abortion.

feminism started out well but now it's gone too far.

Oh that gave me a laugh, in a thread talking about the fact women aren't allowed autonomy over their own bodies. The fact the eighth amendment exists in the Irish constitution shows feminism hasn't gone far enough. If you then consider women shunned for mentruating in some countries, FGM, rape laws including this gem in India this week: www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/26/a-feeble-no-may-mean-yes-indian-court-overturns-conviction where apparently a 'feeble no' may mean 'yes' go ahead rape away, when women are bought for sex and sex trafficking statistics get worse not better, when 14 year old girls are assaulted in broad daylight, where in the US rich old white men get to decide what women do with their bodies, when the term 'women's work' still exists and means something to almost every woman, when there are STILL gender pay gaps which are inexplicable and unacceptable, when women in the media are torn apart over how they look just because they are female, when men can still just up and leave with very little recourse but single mothers are the ones to blame for everything and so on and so on ... Yes, of course feminism has gone too far and you don't sound remotely ignorant.

Sorry for the rant but really

As to this issue it is depressing that this is even something to be voted on and part of me thinks no, why should men get to decide what a woman does to her own body, they've been deciding that for far too long already. However, it isn't a realistic proposition, politically speaking it would be a nightmare and it would open the doors for other single sex referendums and I would fear that would be used against women. Someone up the thread said something like 'can you imagine a country voting on a man's health issues?' and you just can't can you? It's a laughable idea. But here we are in Ireland and the US with the policing of women's bodies up for debate by all.

Bertrand: you asked what I think re men and abortion decisions so in answer:

1. overall policy/voting - men and women all get a vote

2. a specific woman is pregnant then the father should be entitled to state his feelings/opinion to the pg woman but the final decision rests with the woman as she's the pg one. I do think ideally the woman would take into consideration the views of the foetus' other parent (as long as not in abusive situation)

Men are not our enemy MadamM. My brother is a normal man, kind to everyone, not a rapist/murderer etc and he's beginning to feel hated just because he's a man - from what he's read online. That is what I mean about it going too far. Things you mention like FGM are illegal here. Normal men in the UK are not advocating that. Normal men are just getting bashed by feminists for no reason. Do you think a 30yo man had something to do with women not having the vote decades ago?

Perhaps your brother should take up his concerns with other men, the ones who do cause women to be afraid and feminism to still be needed.

existentialmoment Wed 27-Sep-17 15:36:32
There are still women in England who cant get an abortion, because, for example, their doctor is a member of Life, and will obstruct any attempt for her to get one on the NHS
They can simply go to another doctor, or self refer to a clinic. It is no way comparable

No they cant, thats the point of my post. Their GP will obstruct moving their medical record to another practice until it is too late.
This happens now; its not a hypothetical situation.

"Normal men are just getting bashed by feminists for no reason."

In what way? I've never bashed a normal man in my life. Incidentally, did you explain in want way. An siuld be involved in a woman's decision to have an abortion?

Sorry in what way a man should be involved in a woman's decision to have an abortion?

Elevenclips do you not see the utter ridiculousness of talking about your brother reading things on the internet when women are raped and murdered? I mean are we all supposed to shut up about the millions of women violated and maimed because men's feelings might be hurt???

Men are not our enemy MadamM. My brother is a normal man, kind to everyone, not a rapist/murderer etc and he's beginning to feel hated just because he's a man - from what he's read online.

How does he think many women and girls feel, who are regularly harassed on the street, raped, assaulted and murdered for no other reason than they're female by high numbers of men? If he's "beginning to feel hated just because he's a man" from reading a few things online it doesn't sound as if he's very willing to consider how women and girls might feel.

Normal men in the UK are not advocating that. Normal men are just getting bashed by feminists for no reason.

No they're not. Though I'd like to know how you define "normal men". There have been two separate incidents recently where teenage girls have been in one case raped and in another sexually assaulted by one man, then when moving/seeking help, the same assault has happened to each by another entirely separate man. Maybe your brother should be thinking more about what this says about how many men are so filled with misogyny and disdain for women and girls that four completely different and unconnected men are happy to assault two girls in this way (never mind all the other attacks on women and girls happening regularly). www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/girl-17-sexually-assaulted-twice-great-western-railways-newquay-plymouth-train-british-transport-a7905671.html
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/29/two-men-arrested-girls-raped-twice-witton-birmingham

You allude to your brother being 30, my brother is half his age and understands all this so perhaps he should wonder why a 15 year old boy is able to comprehend these issues and he's more bothered about claiming men are "hated".

stichglitched perfectly put.

Normal men are just getting bashed by feminists for no reason.

Women and girls keep getting sexually assaulted, raped and murdered by men and boys for no reason other than they're female.

Both should get a vote,

It affects both men and women, although not a mans body directly- unwanted pregnancies have consequences for both sexes.

I don't like the idea of excluding certain groups for a democratic decision- it's not a direction I think we should be moving in and could have wider consequences if you go down that route.
For instance the transgender issues hotly debated at the moment, its like saying only people who are transgender should have a say because it doesn't affect anyone else's body. Clearly this would be wrong because of the wider implications the legislation will have, same as the abortion issue.

Exactly Sparrowhawk. Astounding that women are continually raped, murdered, brutally assaulted, attacked by men intent on harming women and girls yet we should be more concerned because a man has decided he's annoyed due to some comments he apparently read online. Any man who's more bothered about that than the misogyny women and girls continue to face is hardly the great chap he's making out - as I said, the elder of my brothers understands this, so do the boys I'm friends with.

No man should ever have a say on what any woman or girl does with her own pregnancy in my opinion. In fact, no-one should have a say other than the woman or girl herself. Of course, there'd be no chance of men not being given a vote in this referendum but the idea of men casting votes on what women and girls do with their own bodies isn't great to me (however they're likely to vote).

Sparrowhawk you misunderstood my point. No I don't expect anyone to give a shit about my brother's feelings from reading stuff online. Not at all.

However the point I was actually making is that feminists presumably want and need the support of normal men like him to further their cause. Whereas in fact you are pushing normal men like him away and he will steer well clear of people who appear to hate him for no reason.

I don't face my misogyny in life.

casting votes on what women and girls do with their own bodies isn't great to me (however they're likely to vote).

Depends how you look at, if your pro life, it's not about thinking about women's bodies but thinking about the unborn baby that's the priority.

However the point I was actually making is that feminists presumably want and need the support of normal men like him to further their cause. Whereas in fact you are pushing normal men like him away and he will steer well clear of people who appear to hate him for no reason.

No, it'll push away the support of men who clearly don't care that much about women or girls if they're more bothered about some comments online than the fact women and girls are routinely raped, assaulted, harassed and murdered by men and boys. A lot of men and boys clearly hate women and girls for one reason - they're female.

All my friends who are boys are fully supportive of feminism, as are my dad and the elder of my brothers (the other one I've not talked to about it as much). Decent men know feminism is vital and wouldn't look for excuses to claim it's men who are hated and "steer clear".

Men are affected by abortion mentally, however it isn't their body. They don't have to go though the abortion or pregnancy physically themselves, so no I do not think men should be able to vote. What you do with your own body is your own business.

I don't face my misogyny in life.

Good for you. You think other women and girls don't? You think the women and girls harassed daily, including in school uniform don't? You think the women and girls murdered by men unknown to them for no other reason than they were female didn't? The tens of thousands of women and girls raped every year in the UK don't? The two women a week murdered in the UK by their partner or ex partner didn't? The women around the world trafficked, raped, abused, murdered don't? What an awful attitude you have. You don't face misogyny so everything's fine, your brother read a comment online he decided was attacking men so it's understandable to you men are "pushed away" from feminism. Says it all.

Depends how you look at, if your pro life, it's not about thinking about women's bodies

Of course it isn't because women's bodies are seen as incubators and women aren't deemed worthy of making decisions over their own bodies. Oh and they're not "pro-life" seeing as they don't care about the life of the woman or girl who's pregnant, they're anti-choice.

No-one should be voting on this at all. There should be no referendum. Abortion rights should be implemented in Ireland without one.

"However the point I was actually making is that feminists presumably want and need the support of normal men like him to further their cause. Whereas in fact you are pushing normal men like him away and he will steer well clear of people who appear to hate him for no reason."

Do you know specifically what makes feel hated? Maybe he's on the wrong websites! And what do you think feminists should do to get the support of men like him?