Munroe Bergdorf sacked by l'oreal

[Biddlyboo]

Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...
Sorry, just made me a bit
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/41127404/loreal-sacks-first-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf
Can't do clicky link!

That metro article has so much wrong with it I've no idea where to start Jiggly

Don't call me cis gender - I'd feel the same hurt as if you called me a thick Irish bitch.

Is that visceral enough for people?

"research suggests that 75% or more of those who commit acts of sexual or physical abuse against others were themselves abused as children."

What sexual and physical abuse got to do with this?

Are you suggesting that rapists were themselves abused?
Are you suggesting that men who kill trans people are themselves abused?

Are you suggesting that men who maim and murder people in terrorist attacks are abused?

Are you making excuses for violence?

Feminists aren't allowed to wear different hats according to intersectionality. We have to address all the oppressions at the same time.

We have to address all the oppressions at the same time

There are a lot of oppressions out there. I do wonder not really who the least oppressed people are. And the most oppressed.

I agree with you about the cisgender bit but I can overlook that - it's a quote from Munroe after all. I think the rest of it is pretty pertinent.

Apart from that, what are your issues Elendon?

orlantina

All true. Unfortunately, transactiviism is characterised by delusion and rampant misogyny.

Transactivists can obviously experience racism. The problem is about the credibility of the person who is talking about it.

Which is what this thread is about. However, I do think most people on here have managed to separate the message from whether or not the person talking about is credible in other areas.

Datun thank you for at least engaging. I see where you're coming from. I share reservations about anyone that calls themselves activist frankly - they tend towards zealotry.

I agree that a transwoman will not have been socialised as a woman and that our experiences often shape who we are.

However, I do think that even an anonymous forum can help form and enable a culture of non-acceptance and, again, I won't stand idly by and be silenced when people are complicit in jeopardising the wellbeing of others. I totally understand how some people are threatened by the issue (literally, as several posters have noted). But that doesn't negate some basic aspects of a progressive tolerant society.

It's not pertinent at all.

Can you show me one thing from that piece that is pertinent?

We also live in a society where men are SOCIALISED to be sexist. Women are SOCIALISED to be submissive. Gay people are SOCIALISED to be ashamed of their sexuality due to heterosexual people’s homophobia. Cisgender people are SOCIALISED to be transphobic.

Sorry but this bandying about of the word SOCIALISED, is a bit too much, and lumping me in with sexist and homophobic people is childish in the extreme.

Bergdorf says women are socialised to be submissive. No. We women fought and died for the vote and fought hard to get into university. No acclaim for those women who did this.

It's almost as if Bergdorf wishes women would be SOCIALISED into being submissive.

I can't speak for men, transphobes or homophobic people though.

MotherPeresA

No worries. I'll always, always engage. But I will address your points later (I'm drinking more wine than is going in the dinner I'm cooking).

I'm certainly not going to be submissive about the loss of women as a class.

orlantina

I'm not disagreeing. But transactivistism is fuelled by delusion and rampant misogyny. Of course, a transactivist can experience racism. But then you're left with a credibility problem.

It doesn't negate the racism. But it does undermine the credibility of the person saying it. And that's probably the crux of this whole thread.

Bergdorf says women are socialised to be submissive

Isn't that the discussion people have about 'conditioning' that we hear about all the time?

Men are conditioned to...
Women are conditioned to...

Conditioning by society.

Datun

Elendon

I don't know if you're trying to be clever or what, but I'm not playing.

Of course we're socialised into particular behaviours. I don't see there anything controversial there I'm afraid.

Tolerance cuts all ways though MotherP

I actually hate the word tolerance, it's as if you have to sit and seethe and be socially nice to each other.

Bergdorf is absolutely right on the nail that racism still exists. But where the argument falls down is the wording and expression of it.

Saying that women are socialised to be submissive when you are the face of a beauty empire and a world wide name is a stretch too far.

If we were socialised to be submissive as women we would not be having this conversation over the internet.

Bergdorf as a transwoman would not be sacked because of speaking out!

There would be no feminist books! I've never been submissive.

Saying that women are socialised to be submissive when you are the face of a beauty empire and a world wide name is a stretch too far

Working for a beauty empire doesn't make her part of the solution, does it...

If we were socialised to be submissive as women we would not be having this conversation over the internet

I could have sworn I have seen conversations about how women are conditioned to be nice, submissive and polite on MN.

But Bergdorf didn't say that women were socialised into certain behaviours though. The word used was submissive. I have to disagree.

Is all I'm saying.

I'm allowed to speak and disagree aren't I?

In the fb post, they said: "racism isn’t learned, it’s inherited" I understood it as something passed down. The same way you inherit other things. You absorb the messages through the process of osmosis and it becomes part of your thinking and upbringing. Most people or majority of people do not go out of their way to learn to be racist. It is what it is, There. You can learn not to be. But that can only happen if you actually recognise what it is. It can also become impossible if the system is entrenched in racism and words that you use would seem normal until someone points out the history or you find out accidentally through reading, Or something you have done for years without questioning until it's pointed out why it's that way. It's not something you were purposely taught but it's been part of your upbringing. Sexism works the same way. That is why it's so hard to break. That is why people on this board say that when you learn what sexism is and step out of that mindset. It's everywhere. From things you watch to how you talk and interact to your children and people. How you think. We could all say it's learnt behaviour but it can be too simplistic because some of the racism is not you doing it but it's helping you as person.

I think the equivalent would be if Rachel Dolesal was talking about sexism. I think black people would be well within their rights rights says "hold the fuck up". I would be happy for her to talk about sexism. Which I think she would have faced and it's within her rights to do so. I would also, be ok if she talked about racism as problem or whether white people face it or not. They are free to do that.
However, if she turned it into her experience and what it means to be a black woman, 🤔 I don't think we would be on the same page.

I could have sworn I have seen conversations about how women are conditioned to be nice, submissive and polite on MN.

Why don't you link to those. Because I can guarantee that most of the conversation will be those who say rubbish and those who say it's never happened to me and those who say I'm the boss but must go now to make the tea, vacuum, make lunches, bathe the children and then rub my hubby's feet with pure virgin olive oil before giving him a blowjob - is the latter submissive?

I've never once seen a thread on mumsnet that had the OP as 'I'm raising my daughter to be submissive'

Can you imagine the outrage!!

Thanks all who have taken the time to respond to me. I really have enjoyed writing in this thread. It has indeed been an eye opener. I certainly have taken viewpoints on board.

Elendon what are you on aboit?

Of course women are socialised to be submissive.

Boys are praised and encouraged to be active and loud.

Girls are encouraged to be passive and quiet.

Men are encouraged to take up space literally and figuratively. Women are encouraged to be diplomatic, to think of others.

Surely this is not news to you?

I won't stand idly by and be silenced when people are complicit in jeopardising the wellbeing of others.

Stop gaslighting women. Transwomen are male. That's all.

I am sure there are some people who wear many 'hats' for activism that affects them. Mmm! Yes you do as a black woman. You have to look at both racism and sexism and try to balance that. If I was trans or gay I would have to incorporate that too. It does not take away from who you are as person. You cannot choose one part of your life and ignore the rest.

Feminists aren't allowed to wear different hats according to intersectionality. We have to address all the oppressions at the same time. Really! What claptrap is that? I have posted a short video by the mother of all intersectionality talking about how people got her idea wrong. However, she can't dictate what people do with it. The bottom line is, it's about understanding that other people have issues and how is it brought about. Understanding the structure. It's a means to which you can understand issues around you. No one is saying stop you own activism

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