Munroe Bergdorf sacked by l'oreal

[Biddlyboo]

Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...
Sorry, just made me a bit
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/41127404/loreal-sacks-first-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf
Can't do clicky link!

Only men are responsible for male violence. Genuine gender dysphoria is very likely a mental health condition and as such has several common comorbid mental health conditions. Suicide rate is highly correlated with mental health. Not all transpeople claim to have dysphoria.

There is no substantial evidence that there are even gendered brains, let alone that males have women's.

Sorry Elendon your last couple of posts have completely lost me.

Bergdorf said "women are socialised to be submissive" . It has been said 100s of times on here that girls are taught by society to quiet or polite or not to make a fuss or not argue back

I've never once seen a thread on mumsnet that had the OP as 'I'm raising my daughter to be submissive'

Er, no because that is not the point Bergdorf was making. She was referring to societal conditioning and expectations which can result in women being submissive. And that is said frequently on here.

Being passive and quiet isn't being submissive. It could be called pensive.

Being diplomatic and thinking of others isn't being submissive. It could be called thoughtful.

There are lot's of boys and men who show these traits.

They are quite successful as well.

C'mon there's more to SOCIALISATION than just a few soundbites.

C'mon there's more to SOCIALISATION than just a few soundbites

How do you think patriarchy conditions girls and women then?

How does patriarchy condition boys and men?

Oh Lass you'll answer that point but not my other question. I wonder why.

Do you think I'm submissive Lass?

I understood exactly the social norms that were expected of me. However, I didn't accept them, despite socialisation. Or should that be SOCIALISATION.

Do you think Lass that men are SOCIALISED to be sexist?

Are men SOCIALISED to be sexist?

Sorry but this bandying about of the word SOCIALISED, is a bit too much, and lumping me in with sexist and homophobic people is childish in the extreme. that is what society is about and you get the word socialisation from socialising. Interacting with other people and things that you come cross. Home, school, religion and media being the main forms of socialisation. We can either socialise people to be good or bad. What they said is right even though I don't agree with the word Cis.

Your whole entire existence is based on socialisation. To understand feminism you have to understand how socialisation work. It's the ground work for both evenly and good. Patriarchy and capitalism would not work without. Your way of thinking is shaped by socialisation. The books you read, being on here and reading this thread you are being socialised because this will give you information and way to think.

Do you think I'm submissive Lass

You were probably brought up in a world that expects you to behave like that but were able to break free.

If you can break free of that socialisation, then men can break free of their conditioning.

If women are raised to be submissive then you couldn't possibly describe them as being racist, sexist or anything nasty.

Let's take the focus of women now.

Let's talk about the socialisation of men. Are men SEXIST?

Are men SOCIALISED to be sexist

Aren't boys conditioned to think they are 'better' than girls and treated differently to girls - and this affects their views of girls and women?

I thought that was basic feminism?

To understand feminism you have to understand how socialisation work

How dare you be so patronising! Who the bloody hell do you think you are?

YES or NO

Orlantina

I've been to more feminist conferences than you have had hot dinners. HTH

Aren't boys conditioned to think they are 'better' than girls and treated differently to girls - and this affects their views of girls and women

And in the same way - white children are in general treated differently to black children and this affects their views of black people.

Along with all the messages that society gives out about such groups?

Muslims, BME people etc etc

We are all conditioned. We are all subject to messages.

I don't really understand what you're going on about Elendon.

What do you think props up the patriarchy if it isn't socialisation?

Bergdorf says women are socialised to be submissive that's the definition of oppression. Technically not definition but as saying goes. you should be able to get the drift. The worst form of being submissive is being a lady. It embodies everything that oppresses women. If you don't agree, have check list of what a lady is meant to be and analyse how it would affect women's ability to stand up for themselves.

Saying that women are socialised to be submissive when you are the face of a beauty empire and a world wide name is a stretch too far I understand you point here too.

Oh Lass you'll answer that point but not my other question. I wonder why

Not sure which question you are referring to.

Do you think I'm submissive Lass?

No- nether am I. That is not the point Bergdorf, Orlantina or I were making. This isn't about you.

I understood exactly the social norms that were expected of me. However, I didn't accept them, despite socialisation. Or should that be SOCIALISATION

I am sure you didn't. Has any one said you did? This actually isn't just about you.

Do you think Lass that men are SOCIALISED to be sexist?

Do think it is genetically built in?

Thanks all who have taken the time to respond to me. I really have enjoyed writing in this thread. It has indeed been an eye opener. I certainly have taken viewpoints on board. By definition you have been socialised.

JigglyTuff

I don't really understand what you're going on about Elendon

What do you think props up the patriarchy if it isn't socialisation?

Thank you Jiggly. Glad it wasn't just me not getting it.

Yes you do understand what I'm on about.

Perfectly fine to cement that women are indeed submissive.

No one has yet said that men are sexist. Goodness that would never do.

Don't give me pithy sayings. 'As the saying goes' Piss off with that shite. Who do you think you are talking to?

No one has yet said that men are sexist

Men are socialised to see themselves as superior to women. To see women as lesser.

Things are changing. Some men manage to break that socialisation.

I understood exactly the social norms that were expected of me. However, I didn't accept them, despite socialisation. Or should that be SOCIALISATION. Might not even know you are doing somethings because of of how you were brought up. You are never in vacuum. Your divisions and how they are shaped is never out of space. We all think within the box of society. We can always expand outside of that through reading and doing other things and improve ourselves. But the perimeters are always and mostly never outlandish. Mainly because you would be given names and you would know about it.

Lass has never had any man make a sexist remark or look at them in a lewd way. By their own admission. Doesn't understand why women complain about male gaze or sexist everyday occurrences. By their own admission.

Perfectly fine to cement that women are indeed submissive

Neither Bergdorf or any one on here has said that.

No one has yet said that men are sexist. Goodness that would never do

Not on this thread as it is about racism, not sexism. I suspect 99% of the other FWR threads say so.

I've been to more feminist conferences than you have had hot dinners. HTH

That's fucking hilarious! Are you for real?

If women are raised to be submissive then you couldn't possibly describe them as being racist, sexist or anything nasty. But then you could say the same thing about men. They are within the same system that teaches us all how to think and behave. That is why munroe was right.