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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Munroe Bergdorf sacked by l'oreal

500 replies

Biddlyboo · 01/09/2017 18:06

Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...
Sorry, just made me a bit Hmm
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/41127404/loreal-sacks-first-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf
Can't do clicky link!

OP posts:
phoolani · 01/09/2017 20:27

But all white people are racist. All POC are racist, too, in the sense that they hold ideas about white people/'others', but don't have the structural power for those stereotypes to affect white people on a class level. We all imbibe the racism inherent in our society with our mothers' milk, it surrounds us completely and we all have to unpick our racism - however subconscious it may be - constantly in order to challenge it. Same with sexism. If you don't acknowledge your racism, you are part of the problem. Nobody works to fix something they think isn't broken.

DJBaggySmalls · 01/09/2017 20:28

MotherPeresA
Why should lesbians constantly be verbally abused online and in real life, and told to get over themselves and accept female penis?
Why does it take a woman actually being raped to arouse any empathy in you?

OlennasWimple · 01/09/2017 20:29

So apparently Munroe posted:

"Because most of ya'll don't even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour. Your entire existence is drenched in racism."

Which might well be a point worth debating (though someone from London using y'all makes me cringe....), if she had accepted the irony of the fact that she grew up with male privilege and which is exhibited left, right and centre by so many other MTT

MotherPeresA · 01/09/2017 20:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

phoolani · 01/09/2017 20:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 20:34

Why was my post deleted? I quoted what he said.

Oh is it because I said he?

😂😂

phoolani · 01/09/2017 20:35

People have decided they don't like a nonsensical insult applied to them. Sigh? Seriously?

BeyondLimitsAndWhatever · 01/09/2017 20:40

Having now seen from olennas quote that Munroe used "most of", I'd say that's pretty equal with "as a class", and as such is no more arguable than me saying...

Because most of ya'll don't even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a sex is built on the backs, blood and death of women. Your entire existence is drenched in misogyny

Darn, there goes my L'Oréal contract!

MotherPeresA · 01/09/2017 20:44

DJBaggysmalls

Why should lesbians constantly be verbally abused online and in real life?

They shouldn't be.

...told to get over themselves and accept female penis?

They shouldn't be told anything of the sort and have every right to reject whomever they want (as I've already said).

Why does it take a woman actually being raped to arouse any empathy in you?

... Erm. I'm not really following your logic now.

Can we discuss all the perfectly law-abiding people out there that have neither committed a rape, nor apologised for one, nor abused lesbians online?

Who other than TERFs and rightwing bigots refuse to use female pronouns for transwomen? We both know the answer don't we? That's why you're derailing.

DJBaggySmalls · 01/09/2017 20:47

Men. Not right wing men, just men who are a bit baffled by it all. they dont actually have any groups or acronyms. that doesnt mean they dont exist.

JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 20:54

Not sure why my 'misgendering' post was deleted when others are standing. Anyway, this is what Bergdorf said:

VestalVirgin · 01/09/2017 20:54

Should we report the misogynist, or shall we leave the misogynist posts standing to the misogynist's eternal shame and so that others will see exactly how misogynist TRAs are?

I cannot quite decide.

It never ceases to amuse me that they never even bothered inventing any slurs for right wing men who beat up effeminate males (including transwomen), but of course, MEN are considered human by the TRAs. It would be wrong to insult them.

It's just women who are considered subhuman.

JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 20:56

Oops/ this is what Bergdorf said: ‘Honestly I don’t have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people.
‘Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour. Your entire existence is drenched in racism. From micro-aggressions to terrorism, you guys built the blueprint for this s.
‘Come see me when you realise that racism isn’t learned, it’s inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege.
‘Once white people begin to admit that their race is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on Earth… then we can talk.
‘Until then stay acting shocked about how the world continues to stay f** at the hands of your ancestors and your heads that remain buried in the sand with hands over your ears.’

MotherPeresA · 01/09/2017 21:00

Could someone cut and paste the misogynist bit on this thread? I seem to have missed it. Thanks.

VestalVirgin · 01/09/2017 21:03

Hint: "TERF" is a slur. Like the N-word.
The N-word is racist, your T-word is misogynist. Easy!

Visit the site terfisaslur.com for your further education. But I bet you needn't read what's quoted there, you have probably said it all yourself at one point or the other.

BeyondLimitsAndWhatever · 01/09/2017 21:06

I'll give you a hint. A radical feminist is by definition female. So if an insult includes it, it can only aimed at females. = Misogynist.

I'm helpful. :)

quencher · 01/09/2017 21:14

Thanks @phoolani re-racism 20:27 you stated it well and I don't have to bother with it.

The irony of L'Oréal selling skin lightening cream to black people then crying racism. 😂
People would fight back for being called a racists but would not know racism even if it hit them on the face.

MotherPeresA · 01/09/2017 21:25

Oh, so I definitely won't find any old threads on this forum where feminists with impeccable credentials have referred to themselves (and likeminded posters) as TERFs then?

I don't recall it being an insult even a short while ago, but I apologise if I'm a little out of date and we've moved on. But purlease.. It's nothing like the N word.

It's interesting that you should think that it's comparable though on a thread where we're also discussing how white people dismiss racism. Oh dear. How's your foot?

There seems to be some remarkable over-reaction here: I'm a misogynist for using a word that wasn't an insult but now is (apparently), whilst DJBaggySmalls has made immediate associations between ALL transwomen and rapists.

Meanwhile, I suspect it's pretty insulting to call a transwoman 'he', but some posters are having a good giggle about how naughty that is.

The fact remains that the stance often taken on this forum with regard to transwomen is illiberal and has a great deal in common with so-called Alt-Right bigotry.

phoolani · 01/09/2017 21:41

Quencher - you're welcome. It's all so obvious, yet seems so unpopular...

Theorchard · 01/09/2017 21:43

Op I get what you mean and I thought the same.

JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 21:52
quencher · 01/09/2017 22:02

@phoolani I guess we can kumbaya out here. What racism?

I forgot Cheryl Cole was convicted for racism. "At odds with our values" my arse. Only when it suits them.

SerfTerf · 01/09/2017 22:11

I forgot Cheryl Cole was convicted for racism.

I believe she was cleared of the racially aggravated assault charge and convicted of "just" assault or ABH. The racial aspect was coincidental banter, apparently.

VestalVirgin · 01/09/2017 22:14

Oh, so I definitely won't find any old threads on this forum where feminists with impeccable credentials have referred to themselves (and likeminded posters) as TERFs then?

We have T-word permission. Because we are feminists ourselfs and are using it ironically. Just like with the N-word. Easy!

PricklyBall · 01/09/2017 22:21

Phoolani, seconding Quencher on your post of 20.27. Yes, I think I, along with all other white people, certainly benefit from white privilege, and am probably racist to some degree too, though I try to work against the bits I spot in myself. It's a bit like out-and-out misogyny, versus polite sexism, versus benevolent sexism. All men, whether they like the situation or not, benefit from being men in a patriarchal society. All white people, whether they like it or not, benefit from being white in a society with entrenched and institutionalised racism. (Which isn't to say that it isn't shit being a white working class man in an area with low employment - but being a black working class man will be even more shit, and being a black working class woman even more shit again. You've got to do the "all other things being equal" correction).