Munroe Bergdorf sacked by l'oreal

[Biddlyboo]

Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...
Sorry, just made me a bit
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/41127404/loreal-sacks-first-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf
Can't do clicky link!

MotherPeresA

I know many people are aghast when a trans person is misgendered. But firstly, this does not contribute to the murder of TW. Most TW who are murdered, are prostitutes. The whole world could call them women, but the punter won't give a fuck. They don't give a fuck about murdering women or transwomen, because that's the nature of the punter. Finding a penis where you expected a vagina, is certainly not helped by pretence. Quite the opposite.

In terms of suicide, the rate actually goes up after transition. Not because people misgender them, because even if the whole world calls them women, eventually, the dream goes up in a puff of smoke. Because they're not women. The realisation that what they thought could happen, doesn't happen, hits hard. They crave the validation, but even if it is forthcoming, it doesn't alter their material reality.

Transactivists are usually made up of autogynephiles. These are the people who absolutely will demand you call them women. They are also the ones who are the most misogynistic men. Dominant, controlling and gaslighting.

So yes if a (non autogynephilic) transwoman wants me to use their preferred pronouns, I will. Out of empathy for their gender dysphoria.

But as this is an anonymous forum, and I am not speaking to a transwoman, I won't. Politeness is not necessary if I'm not speaking to them. It's a courtesy. It's not something I agree with.

White people, even if they really want to, won't ever really get it, because they don't live it.

They do live it. In fact, since Brexit, a lot of white people have left the UK because they have experienced racist assaults, such as we voted to get rid of you. Some of these racist assaults came from PoC.

Elendon

What people are you talking of?

MotherPeresA

For what it's worth, I would like to see a third option. A trans option. Separate to both men and women. It would highlight those issues specific to trans, and it would stop the erasure of women's rights.

Transwomen can never be women. They just can't. They will never understand what it's like.

It would be much more amicable to separate the issues.

homeriliad that's disgusting

All white people benefit from racism. All of us. In the same way as all men benefit from the patriarchy.

Munroe is absolutely right.

Homeriliad thank you for highlighting the bigotry that I suspect is under some of the anti-trans comments and doesn't help the gender critical cause at all.

Now fucking crawl back under your rock why don't you.

Datun Jewish, Irish, Syrian, Polish, Bulgarian, Romani, Irish travellers, all face racism and the latter two are particularly persecuted - Irish travellers are persecuted by the Irish in their own country. Obviously this isn't necessarily obvious until the person speaks, though, there are cultural differences.

Of course, discrimination can occur because of ginger hair which you can change.

Of course, discrimination can occur if you are white skinned albino in Africa. Which you have no control over.

All humans have the capacity to be racist.

Munroe has two problems. Firstly that's not what they said. They said all white people are racially violent (or similar). And, secondly, their credibility is undermined by being a transactivist.

Munroe's actual wording is a bit moot though. Because they have raised a question that has huge merit.

Munroe is billed as the third most powerful LGBT representative. A transactivist, not a black activist.

It's not what they've said (very important), it's who's said it (a stranger to rationality and logic).

Elendon

Ah ok. Point taken.

Do not, never, ever, EVER, compare me to Homeriliad Just.

Okay? Because if you do, I will call YOU out on your bigotry.

Disgusting comment from homeriliad

Do not, never, ever, EVER, compare me to Homeriliad Just.

Okay? Because if you do, I will call YOU out on your bigotry.

Exactly. Have a fucking word with yourself, Just.

Not a useful contribution homeriliad.

I can become enraged by transactivism. It's incredibly damaging. But you must remember, you are talking about people. And, so far, from what I have googled, Munroe isn't militant about it.

I disagree, profoundly, with the ideology. But you have to pick your battles.

Bergdorf has changed their stance since the sacking.

In the fb post, they said: "racism isn’t learned, it’s inherited"

Then in a statement post sacking said: "Unknowingly, white people are SOCIALISED to be racist from birth onwards. It is not something genetic. No one is born racist."

So slightly backtracking.

This is actually quite a good article. In the Metro of all places: metro.co.uk/2017/09/01/stop-kidding-yourself-white-people-are-racist-6895283/

Monroe's appearance on Channel 4 was surprising to me. They came across as calm and sensible. Not adjectives that I would normally apply to a transactivist.

I would be very interested to know why L'Oreal was so determined to get rid of them. Because, so far, it looks like a bit of an own goal.

If Munroe sticks to talking about racism, I think they will do some good.

If you think that, do the white people here accept that a white person you should expect to be called out for having opinions about sexism publicly?

I think the equivalent would be if Rachel Dolesal was talking about sexism. I think black people would be well within their rights rights says "hold the fuck up".

Black men can discuss racism. White women can talk about sexism. But if either of those people are actively screwing someone over from another marginalised group I think I'd expect people to comment on the irony.

Though to reiterate I don't actually disagree with what Munroe said.

They came across as calm and sensible. Not adjectives that I would normally apply to a transactivist

But she was talking about racism - so not sure why you are talking about her as a transactivist?

orlantina

True. But, in my experience, transactivists don't miss an opportunity to talk about trans.

Transactivism, by its nature is all consuming. If she was just described as a transwoman, it would be different. It's the activism part.

I have a slight hope, that she is not autogynephilic, but is still an activist. Because that is the way to build bridges.

It's usually AGP who are described as activists.

The narrative and the discourse would be completely different if they were not AGP. (Miranda Yardley, etc).

Sorry, I meant to say, she has actually been described as a transactivist. That's what I'm basing my opinion on. Perhaps she isn't?

Black men are - as a group - oppressing women. They have every right to talk about racism.

White women are - as a group - oppressing POC. THey have every right to talk about sexism.

Non-white transwomen are - as a group - threatening women's rights (although they wouldn't be if the law and the general trend in our society wasn't so mixed up about sex and gender). THey have every right to talk about racism.

The difference here is your perspective IMO.

Rachel Dolesal is perfectly entitled to speak about sexism, why shouldn't she?

Sorry, I meant to say, she has actually been described as a transactivist

She could be both - but wearing different hats?

I am sure there are some people who wear many 'hats' for activism that affects them. Sometimes I guess you have to focus on certain issues rather then discussing all of them.

Rachel Dolesal is perfectly entitled to speak about sexism, why shouldn't she?

Of course she can, but would you not expect people to pipe up?

However, I suspect that, if you are abusive, the chances are that you were abused. Isn't that the case?

Elendon: "No"

Why do people do this? Why deny something so dismissively when it simply can not be easily dismissed.

I literally did a quick google and my first hit says, "research suggests that 75% or more of those who commit acts of sexual or physical abuse against others were themselves abused as children."

Is the argument so important to you that you treat it like a game? This is what infuriates me with places like this. People will argue black is white just to be an arse. It's just so entitled.