How 'afraid' are we of men?

[ChipsForSupper]

Most of us know, either sadly through experience or through knowledge acquired by observing the world around us, that men can be threatening towards women and most of us are also brought up trained to take precautions such as not going out alone at certain times or to certain places. I was just wondering how individual women feel about this and to what degree it affects each one of us.

Personally, on the surface of it, this rarely worries me and I am happy to go on remote country walks by myself, often walk home late at night etc. This is probably because I am older now, I live in a fairly untroubled neck of the woods and I am a "what are the odds?" type person among other reasons.

However, recently, I broke down very late at night in a quiet country layby. I told the rescue people on the phone that, although I was a woman on my own, I was not a priority because I knew the area well and felt quite safe. While waiting for the breakdown truck to arrive, I even had to get out and and venture into the bushes to have a wee and felt perfectly OK about it. Then, at one point, a saw a man walking up the road in the direction of my car. I felt instantly afraid - even though I knew he probably couldn't see me as the lights were out and was more than likely an innocent soul on his way home from a night out somewhere. Nevertheless, my heart was racing and I held my breath until after he'd gone. This reaction took me by surprise and made me realise that I am affected by this general 'fear' of men.

I've often heard friends say that they are afraid of the dark, or afraid of lonely places or afraid of breaking down etc. All of this happened to me and I was fine until a man came along. What we really mean is, we are afraid of men.

Anyway, I wondered how predominant everyone else feels this fear is in their day to day lives?

We are supposed to accept the prevalence of male violence and the constant low-level threat of it, with a "NAMALT" response, but at the same time we are supposed to be really careful not to invite male violence by going to certain places, wearing certain clothes, doing certain things.

It's almost a knee-jerk reaction for some people.

E.G, a thread on AIBU last week about a woman who was trying to execute a U-turn on a deserted country road with her children in the back, and was blocked in three times by two men in a car. Panicked, she eventually yelled at them and they claimed they were only asking for directions.

There were an extraordinary number of posts where her panicked reaction was criticised as perpetuating the idea of 'weak and feeble women who can't defend themselves because they constantly assume the status of victim'.

Despite, her reaction specifically being one where she was defending herself!

Her very rational reaction to the threat of danger was seen, in and of itself, as weak. By women.

I'm quite sad to admit I definitely feel this. I'm constantly aware of whether I'm alone, in a well lit place, how close I am to calling for help etc esp when around men on their own. Right now I'm running an experiment in a closed basement room and it's midday on a fucking Thursday ffs but I had a brief thought about oh what would I do if my male subject suddenly attacked me.

Yes, I am wary of all men, because I feel it's best to be a bit paranoid and be aware of your surroundings at all times. Like being on guard against pickpockets. I won't walk by myself at night for this reason, I'm too scared. It's a shame it's like that but it's how the world is right now. I don't feel I'm missing out as I always have someone to go places with in the evening, I know others aren't so lucky. It is sad I feel that way.

Even you have said where you live is "relatively safe".

I don't know what your point here is, nor with your previous statement. "Not with equal occurrence" so some are harassed, some are sexually assaulted, some are raped, some are murdered? None of these are acceptable. Obviously there's a scale of seriousness but all add to the fear of male violence. I'd written this then realised you meant violence and women and girls occurs more frequently in some areas than others? Well, the examples I gave of two 15 year old girls being sexually assaulted in broad daylight by two separate men in Twickenham would suggest one of the most desirable areas around has quite a high occurrence of such things going by that.

My area is relatively safe but as I said, women and girls are seriously attacked by boys and men in all areas, regardless of how safe or desirable they are. Also, I have to leave my area sometimes even regardless of that fact - every school day for example. Aged 14 in school uniform it was in the area my school is where a man in a suit approached me and made comments about my appearance. Should I not have been concerned at this?

Then again you frequently attempt to pick at my posts and I've explained perfectly reasonably in my opinion why fear of male violence could be constant so not sure why you've chosen to ignore that if not to try to dismiss my points.

Basil completely agree with you about the cognitive dissonance involved. As I was trying to say in my original post, it's wrong for us to articulate that that we are afraid of the dark, or of being alone, or of remote places etc etc when we are actually afraid of men and their potential to harm us. And yet, as you say, we are made to feel ridiculous if we say that we are frightened of men - like we are being either irrational, hysterical or even cowardly (be a bit feisty/stand up for yourself/don't be a victim).

Re the car analogy thing. It sounds ridiculous if we say that we are afraid or cars and even people who express a fear of driving or of having a car accident or being run over by a car are made to feel that they are over-anxious or cowardly.. There is a sense that we can't let fear rule our lives and we have to get on with it. However, people who express a fear of flying or aeroplanes are taken more seriously even though statistics constantly say that we are much more likely to die in a car than a plane. Are we 'allowed' to be afraid of planes because they are not a day-to-day thing, they can be avoided, whereas a fear of cars is less acceptable as cars are more essential to the day to day running of our society and to change our dependence on cars would necessitate complicated and deep-rooted changes in the way we run our society? So following this line of thought, our (statistically and perfectly reasonable and understandable) fear of men must be minimised and ridiculed because imagine the huge transformation in society that would have to take place in order for male violence to be tackled or eliminated properly?

I don't think I have a general fear of men. I live in a central London borough, which has a pretty high crime rate statistically but I've not been personally affected much. I walk home alone in the dark (sometimes after midnight) without thinking much about it, and I've taken shortcuts which are convenient but others might avoid as it's not on a main road. I just don't think it crosses my mind that I might be unsafe a lot of the time. Occasionally I get the thought that I'm alone with a man and if he did something I'd be on my own, but usually that isn't on a dark street - it's been when I've had the gas man come over when I'm in the house alone, for example, or going into a solicitor's office. But I wouldn't take any avoidant action over it as it seems a bit irrational.

I've experienced rape and sexual assault, but the rape was in a relationship and the assaults were with colleagues or on crowded public transport, so it's not something I link with being alone on the street.

As a teenager I was in two physically abusive relationships, one after another, which spanned about 4 years of my life. In the second of these 'relationships' I was raped. Both relationships were with significantly older men, I was a drug user and came from an abusive home wherein violence towards me was the norm - I was victimised my entire childhood by a woman.

I'm not scared of men. I'm not scared of women. Since being a young child I've always had the attitude there's nothing you can do to hurt me.

Where men are concerned (barring lethal violence) there's nothing any of them can do that has not already been done and there's nothing they can do to break me. I will not allow a man to ruin my life and take anything away from me or my sense of self. Fuck the lot of them.

I'd say the same to any woman. Do not allow a fear of men to ruin you. Don't let those who are sick, sadistic Bastards win. I'm not really a feminist, I'm not stood on the street burning my bra and the men I have encountered haven't put me off men - I have a DP and DD and everything is more or less grand now. But, women, girls, we are stronger. Maybe not physically, but mentally.

@NoLove
I'm sorry if you think I pick at your posts. I guess it's just because we disagree?
My point is that your post implies that women and girls are equally at danger from men no matter what the age, location, time, etc. so we should be fearful of them anywhere.
I disagree with that.
I've never known any violent altercation at all in an office working environment for example, although I have friends who've worked in A&E and had to deal with violence.
So I think I can be pretty relaxed about male colleagues at work with regards to violence (not sexual harrassment though, although my personal experience is good).
So my point is, that I don't think women are attacked in all sorts of places at all hours of the day equally. To suggest that is, well, live in fear if you want, but I don't think it's necessary.

To suggest that is, well, live in fear if you want, but I don't think it's necessary.

Who would want to live in fear? I've already explained I fear a wariness rather than constant "fear" and the reasons why I feel it's understandable some of us feel this. I meant more in public than any kind of work environment. Boys and men can and do choose to attack women and girls in any kind of area (I mean area in public) for no reason other than our sex. The knowledge of this is what makes me wary and experiencing street harassment as most girls and (young?) women do doesn't exactly help with this.

Yes, the post about the two men. locking in the car had some outrageous NAMALTing on it. Then the OP came back to explain that she'd reported it, and the police were investigating other reports of the same. And did any of the people telling her she was hysterical, rude and silly and that they were just lost FFS come back to the thread and apologise to her?

Did they hell.

As for me, as so many others have said, I have a general low level wariness in day to day life that operates mostly at a subconscious level, but that sometimes triggers a higher level of threat awareness. I take what others perceive to be higher risks - travelling alone, alone in the house for long periods, walking alone in secluded areas- so it doesn't limit me too much. It's fear-based but i'm not living in fear as such.

NoLove, I guess people's assessment of risk varies.
I often have this discussion with my parents. They're retired, live in a small, rural place with low crime, read the Daily Mail and do nothing but rant about how dangerous the world is, how much crime there is and you can't walk down the street without being mugged, etc. Yet where they live is like Heartbeat where nothing ever happens!
I tell them the most dangerous thing they ever do is get in the car and drive, since they are statistically more likely to die in a car accident than be mugged, but it's being mugged or attacked by a stranger that they're scared of.

Chipsforsupper yes you may be onto something about the ordinariness of cars/ male violence and the reluctance to take serious measures to stop or punish the harm they do because it would involve a radical restructure of how we organise the whole of our society.

One advantage of becoming gradually invisible to men (aka getting older) is that low level sexual harassment has more or less dwindled away.

NoLove - you are younger than most of us on here, so you'll just have to take our word for it that the dynamics between men and women do change as we get older.

Sexual harassment might not involve actual violence,but it's still a form of aggression. It can leave women insecure,uncomfortable, and of not in fear of their life in fear of their job.

My friend is being awfully harassed by her boss. Small company,no HR and is looking for another job but can't find any atm. She can't just up and quit as she's a single mum with 3 kids. So she's stuck there with some dude leering all over her . He only stopped for a while when he thought she was having an affair with a colleague,out of respect for THE OTHER MAN!!!
He does it because he can. Just like all other men that are being violent towards women and girls do it because they can. He just doesn't physically harm her.. small mercies and all that.

I get scared of walking home alone at night if a man is behind me. I don't like walking to my car after a late shift when there are a bunch of men hanging around the field opposite.

I get slightly anxious walking past groups of male teens or men. Mostly due to what they might say. I hate walking past builders and I would be wary in a night club of men groping.

I don't walk around fearful every day but I do try to avoid these situations where possible, which is shit.

for your friend, Rebel

Occasionally I get the thought that I'm alone with a man and if he did something I'd be on my own, but usually that isn't on a dark street - it's been when I've had the gas man come over when I'm in the house alone, for example, or going into a solicitor's office

It has never entered my head to think I might be at risk if I'm alone in the house with anyone reading the gas meter or any tradesmen for that matter.

Your other example has me completely boggled. Why would you think going to see a solicitor has any risk?

"Afraid" would be the wrong word, but I'm definitely wary of men. Being online has made me much more cautious of men irl, for right or wrong, because forums and comments sections have allowed certain types of men to give voice to just how much they hate women. I have no way of knowing who these men are and whether that guy who's staring at me on the bus has just spent the evening sending rape threats to female bloggers or reading some PUA site or watching violent porn.

To be honest I felt a lot safer in the old days when I used to think that Germaine Greer was exaggerating about "how much men hate" us.

NoLove - you are younger than most of us on here, so you'll just have to take our word for it that the dynamics between men and women do change as we get older.

It's not that I'm not taking your word for it, quite the opposite. I'm saying it's quite frustrating that it changing as you get older means it becomes less of a concern. It doesn't help girls and young women who experience street harassment and so forth from a young age to know it lessens as you grow older. I'm glad it stops but it should never begin in the first place for it to be something which no longer happens due to age - it should no longer happen to any girl or woman.

NoLove mine was one of the posts about experiencing less harassment as I've got older, I didn't mean in any way to suggest that younger women should accept a degree of unwelcome behaviour from men. I well remember how horrible it was for me and how infuriating. I was just talking about my current position/experience, and how it has changed.

You didn't Bloodybridget, I suppose I just feel a little wistful when I read of harassment stopping and concerned it could make some think it's not a problem or stop seeing it as one when it does. I'm glad when any women stop experiencing it but want it to be something no woman or girl ever starts having to deal with.

This is a very interesting topic - thanks for posting OP.

In the natural world, smaller creatures and preyed upon by larger creatures. So I wonder if it's inbuilt in all of us to be wary of someone [male or female] who is more powerful than oneself, and particularly so given the 'right' conditions - away from other people, in the dark etc.

Someone said upthread that they are wary of 'behaviours', and I think that nails it. That's what I feel.

It would be interesting to get the perspective of someone who lives in a country where it's legal to carry firearms. Small woman with evil intent plus gun = potentially much more dangerous [to life and limb] than large man with evil intent and no weapon. Or maybe not?

That's not to say that firearms are necessarily the most dangerous thing - perfectly legal things like kitchen knives are potentially fatal too.

Just some initial thoughts and reactions and I'm prepared to listen - haven't really thought it through thoroughly yet. This latter sentence brought to you by the letters 'th' and 'ght'.

If that was the case, small women would be frightened of large women. And they're not.

And although behaviour is obviously an indication, many women have said all that is needed is to be alone with a strange man with no one else around.

Well actually I would be scared of a woman - given the conditions I set out and that the woman was more powerful than me. That was my point.