Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can we talk about liberal feminism?

528 replies

JigglyTuff · 26/08/2017 23:20

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 01/09/2017 22:55

Why do modern feminist groups, online and irl spend so much time examining all the shortcomings in themselves and other women, and splitting things down into hierarchies of oppression?

Perhaps because they use terms like "clusterfuck" to describe a mainstream branch of feminism. Perhaps rather than ignoring comments posters insist on ending otherwise excellent posts with snippy comments.

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 23:05

Quentin's last post explained exactly what I meant. Actually lots of other women have completely understood what I was talking about. If you don't, perhaps it's not something you've encountered.

It's not liberal feminism as it was even 5 years ago

OP posts:
QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 23:06

mousse she was posted when she wrote that and (to me) clearly talking about modern feminist groups rather than liberal feminism as a historic movement.

I'm not sure why you posted the second part of your comment. Confused

QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 23:11

Anyway it's late and I'm not really up to a Friday night fight thread. Sorry I offended you dione. I am protective of this board and don't like people criticising us, I have seen you post negative stuff before so I overreacted this time and i should've kept it to myself. Flowers

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 08:29

JigglyTuff

Quentin explained what you 'meant' - thank you - I think you are being disingenuous if you can't see that the tone was aggressive.
My comment about the inaccurate history related to DJbaggy's post. I can get a bit anal about historical inaccuracies

Why do we pigeonhole? I think with a movement like feminism it is not helpful. Loads of posters have said I mainly think xxx but disagree on xxxx so I'm probably xxxx.
There is no manifesto like in a political party.

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 02/09/2017 09:04

I'm sorry if you found that word offensive. I don't think it's aggressive though. I do think that any movement which is purportedly about one thing and yet spends much of its time worrying about other things has lost its way. Is that better?

Have you read Everyday Feminism? That's what I'm talking about

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 09:05

I do worry that there is be a view that women should not disagree with each other. It seems to me to tie in with the "if only feminists were nicer more flies with honey than vinegar" narrative. Which, IMHO, screams internalized misogyny.

There are things that mainstream liberal feminists believe that I profoundly disagree with. I am not attacking individuals or dismissing anything individuals have done by saying that. But remaining silent is not, imo an option.

TheLuminaries · 02/09/2017 09:08

If the post was about one particular website, which I and many many other longstanding feminists will never have encountered or read, then why didn't you just say that? You don't like a website. Fine. Don't start dicing our great inclusive movement into lots of little pieces and using that as an excuse to slag off your sisters for doing their feminism their way.

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 09:10

TheLuminaries

doing their feminism their way

BrilliantGrin

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 09:15

"Don't start dicing our great inclusive movement into lots of little pieces and using that as an excuse to slag off your sisters for doing their feminism their way"

Seriously, what if you think their way is damaging to women?

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 09:20

Disagreement on issues is not the problem. When disagreement becomes finger pointing you are not a feminist. Or when Everyday Feminism, a clearly fruit loop, out there, bonkers group of pseudo intellectuals is considered "worse than the DM".

That seems to be hating other women (or in the case of Everyday Feminism Wimin) more than we hate the patriarchy.

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 09:24

Everyday Feminism is truly awful and seems to be on the way out (unless bailed out by George Soros or someone). Is that what this thread is about? I must have missed a meeting......

SylviaPoe · 02/09/2017 09:28

Social justice warriors are as bad as the Daily Mail.

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 09:29

Who's a social justice warrior?

SylviaPoe · 02/09/2017 09:31

Everyday Feminism, twitter users issuing death threats, Tumblr mobs.

Ereshkigal · 02/09/2017 09:35

Everyday Feminism is truly awful and seems to be on the way out (unless bailed out by George Soros or someone)

Ereshkigal · 02/09/2017 09:37

Seriously, what if you think their way is damaging to women?

YY. Exactly. And it's not just rad fems doing it, is it?

Everyday "Feminism" is appalling.

Ereshkigal · 02/09/2017 09:37

Social justice warriors are as bad as the Daily Mail.

They are.

Ereshkigal · 02/09/2017 09:39

When disagreement becomes finger pointing you are not a feminist.

Tell that to all the lib fems who call other feminist women "TERFs".

SophoclesTheFox · 02/09/2017 09:40

Arguably, Everyday Feminism is worse than the DM because it's a fifth columnist. You know where you are with the DM and its contempt for women. But EF is more insidious.

I don't subscribe to their view of the world. I don't agree with their version of feminism. I'm not going to be kind about them, because I don't believe I need to be. It helps no-one if I say "Well, we'll agree to differ", when what I actually mean is "Your analysis is superficial, your focus on identity politics is short sighted and divisive, and your promotion of trans issues is coming at the expense of women's issues", does it?

Why ought I to be nice to them? What does nice achieve?

That doesn't mean I wouldn't work with them on feminist issues, it doesn't mean I wouldn't like them as people.

PP have highlighted the specific pressure that women are under to agree and play nicely, but one does like to hope that in feminism, maybe we'd be wise to that and push back?

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 09:42

My point is that when feminists don't just disagree in a "hmm that's an interesting point but....." way but in a "those other so called feminists are worse than the patriarchy" way it damages the whole movement.

As I frequently say women don't need men to oppress us because we are doing a dammed fine job of oppressing ourselves.

At least if you reject feminism and become a 'girly girl' men pat you on the head and smile at you. OK so they smile in a sinister, sexually aggressive, patronising way but someone is approving your choices.

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 09:43

Ereshkigal

Yes EF is appalling. Yes other groups do behave badly. Absolutely.
Does that mean you should?

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 02/09/2017 09:44

It's not just about Everyday Feminism - I was using it an an example. As I said upthread, I read similar stuff every day in online feminist groups I'm in. White Feminist is a slur.

It's not niche or fruit loop - it's a POV that has gained a lot of traction with many women.

I think we're arguing over terminology here. They would (the women who reference EF and applaud Teen Vogue for its inclusivity) describe themselves as liberal feminists. From your posts, I'm guessing that isn't what liberal feminism means to you @moussemore.

Whatever it's called, dismiss it at your peril because this is what is shaping gender identity politics

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 09:45

"When disagreement becomes finger pointing you are not a feminist"

See, this just strikes me as yet another way of saying "women should always be kind and gentle and play nicely"

If I'm wrong, could you say more so I understand?

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 09:47

And, again, what do you do if you sincerely believe that a particular type of feminism is damaging to women?