Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[JigglyTuff]

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

Do you think that men have the right to treat women a commodities to be bought and sold?

Again, I don't disagree but a woman has a right to agree to this happening to her.

Not necessarily. There are legal limits on what we can do with our bodies and whether we can make money from it. Ideas of what this should include are entirely cultural and subjective.

I would be happy to condemn prostitution but not prostitutes.

I don't think this is about what men can do but about a woman's absolute right to make decisions about her own body, and that includes selling it for sex if she chooses to.

Lass I didn't mean to be patronising. My point was that historically woman have been told they are incapable of controlling their own sexuality. It is so complicated and precious women need help and guidance when involved in making sexual choices. A husband or a priest needed to be available to tell women when to have sex and who with. When I hear women telling women they can not consent to sex because they don't fully understand the implications I hear distinct echoes of this.

Ereshkigal yep absolutely a sliding scale as a country we decide how to adjust the scale - I would support the Nordic model.

DJBaggy you're right I have never been homeless or lived in absolute poverty. I am aware of my privilege which is why I add a caveat to these posts. Poverty and lack of access to education invalidate these arguments.

"I would be happy to condemn prostitution but not prostitutes."

I don't think anyone is condemning prosritutes are they?

I said I would. Depends on the circumstances. Posters like the one last weekend and the various other happy hookers bragging on about how much they make, how fantastic their "clients" are.

"said I would. Depends on the circumstances. Posters like the one last weekend and the various other happy hookers bragging on about how much they make, how fantastic their "clients" are."

Oh yes, them. So would I. But they're all lying, aren't they?

I don't think this is about what men can do but about a woman's absolute right to make decisions about her own body, and that includes selling it for sex if she chooses to

You can't have it both ways- if you are arguing it is all about a woman freely deciding to be a prostitute then the flip side is she accepts responsibility for her decision. Sorry, I have zero sympathy for the so called "high class escorts" who usually appear on here.

Lass absolutely, if you choose to sell sex then there are consequences and they are your consequences.

Women have the right to make the decision to sell sex and the absolute responsibility to face the consequences. That's what being free is all about.

"Women have the right to make the decision to sell sex and the absolute responsibility to face the consequences. That's what being free is all about.&"

It's like "you have complete freedom of speech. But you do not have the freedom to shout FIRE in a crowded theatre"

"It's like "you have complete freedom of speech. But you do not have the freedom to shout FIRE in a crowded theatre""

It's like not having the freedom to shout FIRE in a crowded room and simultaneously letting men whisper a threatening 'Fire!' into the ear of every woman and girl in the theater while not permitting them to leave their seats.

Why excuse prostitute-using men from the consequences of their decisions unless punishing prostituted women is just so very much easier?

Why excuse prostitute-using men from the consequences of their decisions unless punishing prostituted women is just so very much easier?

Yes quite.
Even though this thread has not yet had a happy hooker, we are still discussing it in terms of women's choice rather than men's demands. It bugs me. "Invisible punter" indeed

We should absolutely be punishing men who use prostitutes. We should not however let the Brooke Magnanantis or the Laura Lees of the world off the hook for their complicity.

sillage

"Why excuse prostitute-using men from the consequences of their decisions unless punishing prostituted women is just so very much easier?"

I'm puzzled by this comment. The Nordic model criminalises the punter not the prostitute. No one on this thread is excusing the men. This thread is about women not men. No one has suggested even tangentially that prostituted women should be punished. This would be abhorrent.

Freedom of speech is freedom to be offended. The extent of freedom of speech varies between countries. Shouting "fire" in a theatre would cause immediate and obvious damage as discussed previously in relation to racism. That is why it would be illegal in most countries.

bert has implied (although not directly stated) that she doesn't support Nordic model and judges/condemns prostitutes. I read her post as supporting criminalization of prostitutes although I could be wrong

As far as I am aware Bert supports the Nordic model. Her post is not suggesting criminalisation - nor was mine.

I do not however agree with a blanket statement "I would be happy to condemn prostitution but not prostitutes". I do not mean "condemn" to a legal punishment.

"bert has implied (although not directly stated) that she doesn't support Nordic model and judges/condemns prostitutes. I read her post as supporting criminalization of prostitutes although I could be wrong"
Yes. You are wrong.

What I’m saying is that your basis is flawed. You’re saying that women engaging in prostitution may harm others and that’s their free risk to take, yet you don’t agree that men engaging in prostitution may harms others and that’s their right to risk as well.

Things look quite different when you directly connect rapists to their rapes than when abstractly assigning potential societal harm to the woman side of prostitution.

sillage

you don’t agree that men engaging in prostitution may harms others and that’s their right to risk as well

To clarify -men engaging in prostitution harm others. Men make that choice and must bear any consequences that result. I have not said or implied otherwise.

Rape occurs when there is no consent. If a women in a developed country, who has had access to education and social welfare chooses to work as a prostitute and consents to sell sex I do not believe that is rape.

Many prostitutes who are forced to work as prostitutes are raped and this is abhorrent. Economically their choice may have been removed from them. I have been very clear about this and added many caveats to my posts to make that abundantly clear.

"If a women in a developed country, who has had access to education and social welfare chooses to work as a prostitute and consents to sell sex I do not believe that is rape."

This is how victim-blaming operates.

Shush up about women and tell me more about the education level of prostitute-using men and how much social welfare they can receive before your judgments about how they are architects of their own destiny and bring the consequences on themselves is altered.

Is fire too metaphoric for “harm caused by unrestricted free speech”? Rephrased, it’s not women’s right to announce she’s a whore abolitionists are most concerned about but pimps continuing to market, defend, and expand men’s demand for the global slave trade through the anti-woman propaganda of pornography.

sillage
Shush up about women

Nahhhh on a feminist thread I don't really want to be told to "shush up about women". Women, their choices, their decisions, their lives kind of the whole point of feminism.

To be totally clear i support the introduction of the Nordic model as do most posters on this thread and I condemn men who use prostitutes.

Porn producers for Girls Gone Wild were brought up on child rape charges for filming underaged girls, I think they were 14 or 15 years-old. The girls had subsequently had been driven from their schools, off social media, and had multiple suicide attempts. Obviously, there was filmed evidence and the proof the girls were underage, and still the child pornographers walked from all charges because the jury was full of Moussemoose.

Because if a girl in a developed country, who has had access to education and social welfare chooses to work as a prostitute and consents to sell sex they do not believe that is rape.

Sorry, bert this post confused me

"The Nordic model allows women the choice to continue acting as prostitutes"

And allows men to continue to treat women as commodities.

As you were

I think men should be penalised very severely for using prostitutes. So severely that it's not worth the risk.

sillage

The example you give relates to children not women. I have never said, and would never say, 15 year old children get to make a choice about prostitution. Would you please make points related to what I have actually said!

To be fair to you you may not, Mousse, but plenty of others do think 15 year olds can choose to sell sex. Transactivist Janet Mock, who spoke at the Women's March, thinks it's empowering.