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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can we talk about liberal feminism?

528 replies

JigglyTuff · 26/08/2017 23:20

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 09:49

SophoclesTheFox

I'm not in any way supporting EF. They are clearly nutters, but that's my point they are clearly nutters. Most people haven't heard of them and most intellectually active people do not take them seriously. They cause damage and they divisive. Ignore them or, better yet, laugh at them.

The DM has a pervasive, society wide impact. It is read and (good god) respected by millions of women. It sets the political and social agenda in the UK. For over a century it has been nothing but a drag on any social changes and works to actively oppress and divide women.

No contest.

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 09:51

JigglyTuff

Those of us of a certain age use liberal feminism in a very different way to these new fangled lib fem flibbertigibbets.

SylviaPoe · 02/09/2017 09:52

The impact of newspapers has hugely reduced because so much influence comes from online.

Dervel · 02/09/2017 09:58

Isn't there room for all kinds of feminism? Ok not everyone is going to agree 100% all of the time, but that's true of any ideology/philosophical approach.

QuentinSummers · 02/09/2017 09:59

Whatever it's called, dismiss it at your peril because this is what is shaping gender identity politics
Yes this. In fact it's shaping more than gender identity politics. It's what many (most even?) people mean if they call themselves feminist and it is so damaging. A movement where women abase themselves for their "privilege" is not feminism.

At least if you reject feminism and become a 'girly girl' men pat you on the head and smile at you. OK so they smile in a sinister, sexually aggressive, patronising way but someone is approving your choices.
We should be trying to get to a position where women don't need to seek approval. Men sure as shit don't.

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 02/09/2017 10:02

Well, yes. But I'm been trying to say that is what I'm talking about. It may not be what you - or I - recognise as liberal feminism. Maybe it's intersectional feminism rather than liberal feminism?

I do think you're being a bit dismissive by calling them flibbertigibbets Wink

OP posts:
SylviaPoe · 02/09/2017 10:04

'Isn't there room for all kinds of feminism?'

Surely the whole point of social justice is that it is an ideological purity movement. There is no space for dissent whatsoever.

It goes dissenter identified, dissenter called out and shamed, dissenter apologises profusely, dissenter accuses others to show they have been educated.

SophoclesTheFox · 02/09/2017 10:05

Well, obviously there's a difference of reach between the DM & EF. I was more getting at the difference between a relatively obviously damaging approach to women (DM: let's expend acres of column inches to judging women's bodies and making us feel shit about ourselves) and more subtle damage (EF: feminism is about righting all social wrongs by "calling out" problematic things that people do).

QuentinSummers · 02/09/2017 10:06

And, again, what do you do if you sincerely believe that a particular type of feminism is damaging to women?
I would like to know this too. Where is the line between empowering individual women and damaging womanhood as a whole? Prostitution is where this shows most starkly to me.

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 10:22

I have an issue with saying this never a choice women are allowed to make - I posted about it earlier giving examples.

There was a thread about prostitution a few weeks ago and several women who have worked, or still work, as prostitues came saying they feel they made a choice.

With many caveats, western society, access to education etc, I do not feel able to tell these articulate thoughtful people that their choice was not really their choice. It was not a feminist choice, but it was a choice.

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 10:36

"I have an issue with saying this never a choice women are allowed to make"

Women can make any choice they want. The issue is with a sort of feminism that regards any choice made by women as by definition feminist and empowering.

DJBaggySmalls · 02/09/2017 11:34

We 'pigeonhole' ie define and describe, because women like me, and lesbians, are being attacked by other women - for not centering men. And we are fed up with it.

I've been labelled a right wing bigot because I dont support the idea that someone with a penis is a women. I dont think its progressive or feminist. I dont know how women are supposed to tell the real women who have a penis from abusive men. We are told to accept them all.
We are told this is not up for discussion.

There are people on this board defending this and defending EF. How many women do they have?
Meanwhile After Ellen is being attacked. For being lesbian orientated, by and for lesbians ffs.
Its relentless.

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 12:01

DJBaggySmalls

I don't recall - I might be wrong - anyone defending EF as such. More a dismay at the delight when it was discovered it might close. I won't defend it but I also won't attack it and dance gleefully on it's grave.

As I've said before if other people on other forums attack and vilify you then that is wrong and they are wrong. However, that does not mean that you have to behave that way and that this board should accept it.

The attacks are, as you say, relentless so draw a line and stop. Debate, discuss, engage but stop with the "you said this so you are not a feminist" or "only women who think this can feminists".

I don't agree with you on some points but your feminism is obviously real and a deeply held principal that is an important part of your life.

QuentinSummers · 02/09/2017 12:06

several women who have worked, or still work, as prostitues came saying they feel they made a choice. I do not feel able to tell these articulate thoughtful people that their choice was not really their choice
I don't think anyone does say that. I think many of us thinks that the existence of prostitution 1) harms women in lots of ways 2) demonstrates a fundamental inequality in society.
But we never get to discuss that on threads because there is always a prostitute comes on to tell us we are invalidating their choice and insulting them.
I could not care less if an individual woman wants to sell access to her body. As long as she is freely consenting it's none of my business.
I do care that we have a society where men believe they are so entitled to an orgasm they will pay to essentially use a woman. It's not compatible with equality imo.

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 12:06

"Debate, discuss, engage but stop with the "you said this so you are not a feminist" or "only women who think this can feminists".

I don't think anyone has said this. I know I haven't.

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 12:08

"I don't recall - I might be wrong - anyone defending EF as such. More a dismay at the delight when it was discovered it might close. I won't defend it but I also won't attack it and dance gleefully on it's grave"

Why not?

Datun · 02/09/2017 12:09

Isn't it that feminism which supports prostitution, pornography and the trans ideology isn't so much about it being a different brand of feminism, it's about not being feminism at all. Are those 3 things not the epitome of patriarchy? The very definition of it?

If you are going to support those three things and call it feminism, then you are absolutely going to have to separate out those two strands of feminism.

That's my understanding.

My personal belief is that the trans-ideology is wholly anti women.

As is porn.

Prostitution is difficult when you have prostitutes claiming they love it and it's a choice. I disagree, but I struggle to condemn that on a personal level, eye to eye.

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 12:10

I'm not going to search but I remember recently a SAHM being told she isn't a feminist. Perhaps it was that being a SAHM is not a feminist choice.

It certainly felt to me like a proportion of women exercising a choice I fought for (to work or not work as a parent) were having their feminist credentials severely challenged.

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 02/09/2017 12:15

www.independent.co.uk/voices/prostitution-sex-trade-is-built-on-brutal-racism-a7925476.html

You can defend all sorts of things on an individual level but unless you acknowledge the framework that 'choice' is built on, then I don't think you can call yourself a feminist

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 12:17

"I'm not going to search but I remember recently a SAHM being told she isn't a feminist. Perhaps it was that being a SAHM is not a feminist choice.

It certainly felt to me like a proportion of women exercising a choice I fought for (to work or not work as a parent) were having their feminist credentials severely challenged."

Oh, right. So not loads of people being told they can't be feminists then?Hmm
And what's wrong with "having your feminist credentials severely challenged?" There is a lot problematic about being a SAHM - I speak as one- and it needs to be talked about.

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 02/09/2017 12:21

She was not told she wasn't a feminist, it was that it isn't a feminist choice. And it isn't.

Those are not the same thing at all and it's a bit disingenuous of you to imply that they are. Wholly different

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 12:24

BertrandRussell

I can only apologise for not being prepared to search through many threads to find a wining quote. I, and others, have expressed an opinion please feel free to ignore it.

I agree the role of SAHM does raise issues and leaves women vulnerable but it is a choice they should feel free to make as feminists.

Moussemoose · 02/09/2017 12:24

JigglyTuff

Thanks for clearing that up. My mistakeSmile

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2017 12:30

Mousse- you really can't say things like "Debate, discuss, engage but stop with the "you said this so you are not a feminist" or "only women who think this can feminists".
and when asked who has said anything of the sort refuse to provide any details. It's like the fucking MRA with their "feminists want to put all men in concentration camps" schtick.

DJBaggySmalls · 02/09/2017 12:32

Moussemoose
I have never said "you said this so you are not a feminist" or "only women who think this can feminists".
I have repeatedly said there is a problem with some kinds of behaviour and beliefs - because they affect other women. And that is why I cannot call myself a liberal feminist.

So far not one person has explained why Janet Mock was on the platform at the Women's March.
Janet Mock says child prostitution is “liberatory” and “empowering” for transgender children in an article and series of videos. Mock describes an “underground railroad” of adult males that introduce transgender minors, including himself, into sexual relations with adult men for pay, which he celebrates as “making us feel desired”.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/janet-mock-on-the-underground-railroad-into-child-prostitution-for-transgender-youth-and-why-he-thinks-thats-a-good-thing/