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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can we talk about liberal feminism?

528 replies

JigglyTuff · 26/08/2017 23:20

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 31/08/2017 21:43

I did not see a single post about how to improve things for women, but a lot of naval gazing about how feminists are doing feminism wrong.

I feel your pain Quentin, that's exactly how I feel when I read about how terrible lib fems are here.

Moussemoose · 31/08/2017 22:21

Seeing as though lables proliferate why can't we start a new one MN fems?

QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 08:46

I would prefer to just be labelled a feminist. People who aren't putting women first, to me are not feminists.

TheLuminaries · 01/09/2017 08:57

Yup, happy with feminist here too. I think of myself as liberal because I don't want to overthrow society but I don't really see what that has to do with trans stuff, although on this board it is being treated as synonymous with trans rights, which I find odd.

I just think that is an irrelevant side show, most women don't give two hoots. If I ask my adult/teenager daughters for their major concerns as women in a mans world, trans wouldn't even make the top 100 in terms of issues, I really don't think it is a good use of feminists' time to get steamed up about it. My girls worry more about societal expectations in term of jobs/childcare - fortunately I have a good job so they see it can be done but most women do seem to put daddy's career first and that vexes them. That and the pornified expectations of women's bodies. Oh and issues like birth control, FGM, forced marriage in other cultures eroding hard won rights. Trans is not something that upsets them at all. I like to listen to the young feminists - they are the future & looking at my daughters I feel pretty good about that.

QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 08:57

dione no-one says lib dems are terrible. I agree with other posters upthread, the only time I see you post regarding feminism is to get outraged about how people are talking about lib fems. Without reflecting on the substance of what is being said, which is that at the moment, many people call themselves liberal feminists while holding a point of view that is very damaging to women.

I want to distance myself from that which is why I use the "rad" label. I'm not ashamed of my "exclusionary" views (such as the existence of prostitution damages women) and I cba explaining it in real life and getting called a SWERF. Similar for being gender critical. Using the "rad" label gets round all that. Sometimes I say I'm an old school feminist for a similar reason.

I've never seen you engage in actual discussion about feminism at all. So I wouldn't know if or why you think widespread porn availability is fine, if or why you think sex work is a job like any other, if or why trans women are women.

The phrase "shit or get off the pot" comes to mind.

QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 09:01

Great post luminaries.
I think the trans issue is central to the debate, because as said upthread in many groups (online and irl) you have to accept "trans women ARE women" or be ostracized. It hurts when that happens (has happened to me) and many women are angry and feel silenced because of it.
I too get frustrated with the amount of threads on this board regarding trans but it's because the debate is silenced elsewhere.

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2017 10:50

no-one says lib dems are terrible.

I think the Lib Dems are terrible! Grin

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2017 10:53

Trans is not something that upsets them at all.

Arguably that's because they don't really understand the ramifications of erasing biological sex. They don't see how it relates to women's rights.

QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 11:13

erish Grin
My stupid phone.....

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2017 11:18

It was an awesome autocorrect Grin

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/09/2017 11:41

The phrase "shit or get off the pot" comes to mind.
What do you mean?Confused

quencher · 01/09/2017 12:04

@TheLuminaries
I think of myself as liberal because I don't want to overthrow society. I actually think most feminist actually want to over throw society's patriarchy. Every time you ask for change that affects how women are viewed or treated, that is part of the deconstruction of patriarchy. When the over throwing is being talked about, it's never about war actions. We could easily have riots and matches but majority, if not all, don't think about wars with guns. It's about the changes that needs to be made to get women to be treated like humans with rights as men. Everything you have mentioned below is. Part of the deconstruction of society. It's basically changing the society we live in and removing this male dominance and centricity. The emancipation is the banality to be able to choose to do things without the influence of patriarchy. Without men as the beneficiaries of your actions. (wanting to please a husband out of your own choice and not because society dictates that to do so is to cut of your clitoris with all the taboos that would come with it for women who decide to not do so)
My girls worry more about societal expectations in term of jobs/childcare - fortunately I have a good job so they see it can be done but most women do seem to put daddy's career first and that vexes them. That and the pornified expectations of women's bodies. Oh and issues like birth control, FGM, forced marriage in other cultures eroding hard won rights.

The other argument I have come cross is whether to create change from within (grass root changes like in teaching, similar organisation tackling FGM like the group in Ethiopia that stoped being funded etc)

or from the outside, meaning bringing in laws like quotas and making somethings a criminal offence if it is found to be sexist. Changes in the law that puts women first like fair cases in regards to rape cases and sexual assaults.

I also, think that the deconstruction will be different to how we imagine it as capitalism is unstoppable. Any feminist change will have to work within that prism.
Every generation has there own ideas and it's difficult to predict how they will be in the future. All we can all do is work for what we believe in and hope that the next generation sees it the same way we do.

QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 18:26

dione to put it bluntly I mean engage in the debate at hand or go away.
Obviously it's an open forum but this posting about FWR being mean with no substance is just dull.
Luminaries did a great post above about what being a lib fem means to her, it would be great if you did the same sometime instead of sniping.

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/09/2017 18:49

Nowhere on here I have I posted that FWR is mean with no substance. I have addressed specific posts and answered specific questions so your accusation that I am not engaging is ridiculous. Perhaps you mean that I am not engaging in a way that you would like.

QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 19:28

This is your first post on the thread

This Lib Feminist will leave you rad fems to your bitching thread about other women. Sure that's what feminism is about, right?

That's sniping, not engaging

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/09/2017 19:59

That was the end of my first post on this thread.

Pu55yD3s7r0y3r · 01/09/2017 20:16

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UltiMumLovedByGod · 01/09/2017 20:19

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Moussemoose · 01/09/2017 21:26

QuentinSummers

Yes Dione did post that and on reading the opening posts I very much agreed with the point she was making "clusterfuck" followed by a historically inaccurate post no one clarified (until later) she responded to what had been posted at that time.

This debate has moved on and been very positive but I too have abandoned FWR threads due to the relentless negativity towards liberal feminism.

The continuous comments about Dione are now baiting and unpleasant. Some really good points are being lost in tit for tat comments. I made some comments in response to a post yesterday and no one picked up on them. So what? Sometimes people pick up sometimes they don't but to ignore debate to make a point directed at another poster...........? Really?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/09/2017 21:53

I didn't get the impression the OP wanted to talk about liberal feminism beyond a diatribe of how awful it is, which Dione disagreed with.

I'm not sure why it is necessary to be one or the other - it is not as if they are political parties- rather than simply having an opinion on things which affect women.

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 22:07

I wanted to talk about why women felt that they needed to be so apologetic all the time actually Lass. Why 'White Feminist' has become a hate term amongst women as well as men on the left. Why women's issues have been bumped so far down the list of priorities that they are almost not an issue.

They're important because these women are the next generation. And if they're not centring women because they feel that being a white woman is a massive privilege that they need to STFU about, then we have a massive, massive problem.

Dione said at the outset of this thread that she wasn't going to engage which is obviously her prerogative. But she has continued with her usual snippy little posts from the sidelines - as have you. It's tedious and it hampers what was an interesting discussion

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 01/09/2017 22:18

JigglyTuff

Would calling liberal feminism a "clusterfuck" be tedious? Would it hamper debate?

I don't disagree with your last post in relation to feminism but don't imply your initial post wasn't the least bit goady. And really get over being snippy about Dione the more you have a go the more you prove her point.

Moussemoose · 01/09/2017 22:20

LassWiTheDelicateAir

Why do we have to be one or the other. People love labels and they often just serve to divide.

QuentinSummers · 01/09/2017 22:43

To me jigglys OP was maybe slightly confused (and she said she'd had wine, so fair enough) but the sentiment is clear. Why do modern feminist groups, online and irl spend so much time examining all the shortcomings in themselves and other women, and splitting things down into hierarchies of oppression? How does that help improve the lot of women?
"Lib fem" is just short hand for the bulk of today's feminism.
I also don't get it so I'm with OP. It's actually nothing to do with the "lib fem" label or ethos. It's to do with truly not getting how the response to a blog by Karen Ingala Smith about male violence is "well her views are problematic because she is a transphobe". It's flipping ridiculous.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/09/2017 22:54

Dione said at the outset of this thread that she wasn't going to engage which is obviously her prerogative. But she has continued with her usual snippy little posts from the sidelines - as have you. It's tedious and it hampers what was an interesting discussion

I have read this thread and I think , although I have not checked, only posted in support of a poster who was quite rudely and unreasonably attacked for being off topic.

Dione may have said at the outset she was not going to engage- clearly she changed her mind - her prerogative.

I don't get any sense you were looking for a discussion. Your opening posts were a diatribe. Your explanation now is quite disingenuous and bears no relation to them.

Your own snide little comment to me shows you are only interested in hearing agreement. I repeat the question - what purpose does it serve pigeon holing into these camps?