Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[JigglyTuff]

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

I think you might be waiting a long time Bertrand!

Boris - it's all about social conditioning I think. So yes, feminism is a good thing (no intelligent woman wants to be thought of as not a feminist) but it comes down the list after LGBTQ+ (or whatever it is nowadays) and race. Hierarchies of privilege. So although half of all the people in the world are women (hence misogyny affecting far more of the human race), that's less important than all other oppression. IME anyway

And class! Forgot class

DJ, women were admitted to Oxford in 1920, not 1972.

I agree with everything else, I am a radfem. The libfems I know share some views but are very anxious about men's feelings and I am not.

I think there seems to be a lot of apologising for everything of late on the liberal front, even beyond feminism.
I.e. Discussion about tearing down Nelsons Colum. It's constant apologising for things people who have lived and died before us, for every kind of privilidge- now extending to cis privilege. We constantly have to feel guilty about all kinds of things that had nothing to do with us. I'm reading a book at the moment which says it's some sort of social conditioning tactic

I don't yet fully understand but I was trying to figure out what was going on with the transgender activism movement, there was a post on here likening it to a cult.
For anyone interested look into Frankfurt school and critics theory.

"The theory was simple: criticize every pillar of Western culture—family, democracy, common law, freedom of speech, and others. The hope was that these pillars would crumble under the pressure"

I feel like we are being controlled and there's something going on. Trans movement has been funded by George Soros, he's funding all sorts of liberal movements. Including black lives matter- look on their website at principles- there's nothing there about protecting the rights of young black men- it says it's mission is to disrupt the nuclear family, we should live in viallages with children raised communally. They refer to trans all the time. They say the words mother, parents but not "father". There are some very strange things going on.

Thats very interesting missy

I agree liberal feminism once fought for legal and political changes and protections. I think they have lost their way in a hurry to protect men's feelings in a way that radical feminism has not.

That's really interesting, Missy. Something I really want to know is when this current trans orthodoxy happened, and how it became mainstream so incredibly quickly. It was almost overnight- and if you think how long and hard women and gay people had to fight for their rights, and how there is still such a strong rearguard action against them, for trans people there was no fight at all really. So someone, somewhere must be benefitting from it.

I am only a very recent convert over from liberal feminism and yes, it's a load of utter bollocks. I'm embarrassed about some of the things I used to think and say.

Well, it isn't really a load of bollocks, is it? Many of the thinks liberal feminist stand for, as some pp have said, are just the ordinary, feministy things. I suppose the difference is the way, in an ideal world, we would get there. And the huge elephant in the room that even the outspoken Mumsnet liberal feminists won't address-prostitution and porn.

I don't know bertrand, I would like to achieve liberation from male oppression. Most liberal feminists look at me like this when I say that.

I am not all that sure the aims are the same TBH.

Yes, me too. What I meant was, to quote a previous poster "The kind of things that liberal feminists will fight for, then, tend to centre around law and policy change, such as: equal education, voting, reproductive rights, abortion rights, protection against sexual harassment and domestic violence, and equal opportunities in the work place". So many of the day to day aims are the same. It's the philosophy- as you say-that's different.

My main issue with LF is it likes to spout that feminism is about choice without a second thought as to why women might make certain "choices" under patriarchy that they definitely wouldn't if it didn't exist.

Education should aim at destroying free will so that after pupils are thus schooled they will be incapable throughout the rest of their lives of thinking or acting otherwise than as their school masters would have wished ... The social psychologist of the future will have a number of classes of school children on whom they will try different methods of producing an unshakable conviction that snow is black. When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for more than one generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen." -Bertrand Russell quoting Johann Gottlieb Fichte, the head of philosophy & psychology who influenced Hegel and others – Prussian University in Berlin, 1810

This quote- "convincing children snow is black" so they are incapable of having free thought to me sums up the trans movement. It's designed to alter the meaning of words, reality it's intended to confuse to control. Manipulation of reality. Transgender people don't know what's going on and what they're being used for.

The social psychologist of the future will have a number of classes of school children on whom they will try different methods of producing an unshakable conviction that snow is black. When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for more than one generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen." -Bertrand Russell quoting Johann Gottlieb Fichte, the head of philosophy & psychology who influenced Hegel and others – Prussian University in Berlin, 1810

YY. I think that's part of what's behind certain "philanthropists" funding and promoting the trans movement.

Yes such as Soros!, the Hungarian government have been running an anti Soros campaign because they say he is masking political activism in the forms of non governmental organisations.

I just can't get on board with the Whole 'sex positive' movement. The LibFem views on porn and prostitution plays into the hands of men and feeds into the abuse that happens to women on a daily basis.

Just no.

@Missymoo100 apparently he is the enemy of the far right.
Hated for apparently single handedly creating the refuge crisis which is destroying Europe and its way of life.
For supporting those the state does not want to help. Well I never! I think I will leave my tin hat on the side.

Discussion about tearing down Nelsons Colum. It's constant apologising for things people who have lived and died before us, for every kind of privilidge- did you even read the article by Afua hirsch or was it from something like the dailymail or one of the others?

I guess I would fall under liberal feminism if I was to follow radical feminist stand point on men. I believe that patriarchy is the problem and needs to be dismantled. I want all women to be liberated and non left behind.
I believe that prostitution and porn feeds patriarchy and it is a problem when it's comes to women's freedom.
I believe that I cannot move forward, when my son (not literal but potential) brother, uncle and the rest of the black men left behind from a racist stand point of view. I guess this is where I become a liberal. The fact that I can consider some men in my thoughts about their wellbeing and fights while fighting for freedom. This is where womanist fits me better mostly when asked about where I fit.
But, do I believe in the core of feminism ideology, yes!
I cannot be in alliance with black men when I can or when it suits me, We are in a fight together and sometimes, I, against them.
If that makes me liberal. I stand as proud liberal.

And I definitely agree with Crenshaw and Angela Davis. I am a liberal by all means.

"I guess I would fall under liberal feminism if I was to follow radical feminist stand point on men"

What do you think the radical feminist standpoint on men is?

Yep could you let me know what the radical feminist stand point on men is

I have a feeling I'm going to be doing it wrong...

Nope dont worry i have just found it

The fact that I can consider some men in my thoughts about their wellbeing and fights while fighting for freedom. This is where womanist fits me better mostly when asked about where I fit

So do you mean that radical feminists dont think of some men and their wellbeing?

Thank goodness i said most of the radfem bit in my post

Yes I did read her article and saw the debate with Laura Perrins. I really disagree with the argument. I'm sick of this idea that we have to be constantly apologetic for everything. She makes the point that that colonial Britons tore down monuments in other countries, well it just sounds vengeful. It's like we have to be sorry for forever and tear down statues as punishment to our country. People back then had different values that have changed today. Ripping down statues doesn't solve anything, it doesn't put past wrongs right. Why can't people just move forward to try and make things better. If we're going to carry on like this we might as well destroy all history because it may offend someone.
The fact people act so offended all the time and extreme political correctness is getting totally out of hand.
The extreme left label anything they dont agree with as "the far right" it's another way of shutting people up, and furthering their agenda and they're doing a good job of it.

@BertrandRussell And @Rufustherenegadereindeer1
by thinking about the betterment of some men (black men) and how we can tackle their issues and rights and sometime in the same level as mine. I would be put in the brackets of being nice to men and considering their feelings. It's not something I can step out of and have it like minor issue or forget when necessary.
Hopefully, not in away that I think it encroaches on my rights as woman. From all sides. Anyway, it wouldn't mean much if I fought for my rights as woman and still faced racism.

quencer

I see what you mean but i dont think that feeling a kinship with more red fem ideals means that i wouldnt want to tackle the issues and rights of black men

But i might have the wrong end of the stick its a very common occurrence

I'm going to bed when the film ends though so if you reply im not ignoring you