Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is prostitution rape?

219 replies

BayLeaves · 21/08/2017 14:59

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning.

I am undecided on the issue as I have not really thought much on it before.

OP posts:
Gonegonegone · 22/08/2017 17:09

Men out adverts out for a free bed for the night and a hot meal in exchange for sex. Homeless women respond to these. They don't consent of free will, their consent is forced by lack of economic resources, and coersed by men preying on their vulnerability.

Prostitution is the same.

Gonegonegone · 22/08/2017 17:29

Nspcc states that abuse is equal in all classes. I was sexually abused my multipul men and a woman several times a week from when I can first remember until I was ten. We were poorish as I had a sp but she was professionally educated and employed so I guess we were lmc.

Agree saying it's rape isn't taking away agency from women (tut tut naughty women are allways to blame for disempowering women, where have we heard that before??). It's about criminalising what the punters are doing, buying consent is not consent given with free will. It's the men disempowering the women not other women by being honest about what those men are doing.

Giles, abuse is not comparable. Being honest about abuse in no way invalidates or insults what I went through as a child. In alot of ways the emotional abuse I suffered, the manipulation and gaslighting was worse than the sexual abuse and if others are honest about that it makes it easier for me to process that also, to find the words for why that was wrong. I also think you are being hard on yourself, saying you have no one to blame but yourself. I don't think that's the case. Men pick vulnerable females for a reason, that's on them not you. And socialisation conditions is to think our bodies exist for male pleasure, and to know that we must appease men rather than risk further violence. The latter may help us survive physically but it effectively continues to condition us and disempower us by taking away the language we need to identify why it's men's behaviour that's wrong not ours. Social conditioning for females is a form of abuse all in itself. It primes us to be the perfect victims.

sillage · 22/08/2017 18:10

"Actually there are clients who can and do help with this by acting when they see evidence of coercion"

Can you give some examples of punter men who helped rape slaves escape?

I get daily news alerts on prostitution sent to my inbox and I don't see reports of punters acting like this, but perhaps you have access to sources I don't know about.

Gileswithachainsaw · 22/08/2017 18:20

Men pick vulnerable females for a reason, that's on them not you

Ha yes I was probably every birthday and Xmas rolled into one for any boyfriend who ended up with me.

What I lacked in looks and class I tried to make up for in other ways. I believed what they told me. If they needed money they could have it, never asked for or expected birthday presents or gifts of any kind. Never asked or questioned why I wasn't taken out. In fact you could disappear for a week or two and I'd just be worried about you and make excuses for you rather than be pissed off.

I agree with what you say 're gaslighting and emotional abuse being worse than anything else.

The being kept dangling is awful. The being lied to is awful. I still remenber one boyfriend being pissed off at me over something I said. I apologised so much for what I said. Except I had no idea what I had actually said. I asked friends of ours who told me what I'd said and I had no recollection of ever saying it it wasn't the kind of thing I've ever said in my life nor something that would ever come up in regular conversation. I know I never said it. Yet there I was sending text after text apologising and trying to drown my sorrows as I thought he was going to dump me.

Even now I've caught dp making stuff out that I just know I never said or did or whatever. It drove me far madder and made me far more angry than being beaten up by my brother as a kid growing up ever did. Violence is at least over when it's over. It's awful yea and painful obviously. But it was done and dusted til the next time. And you know you aren't going mad imagining it cos you have the bruises.

Gonegonegone · 22/08/2017 18:41

Giles I hope you have some RL support and counciling. Doesn't sound like you're in a great place and I hope you can find the support that helps improve that.

Gileswithachainsaw · 22/08/2017 18:43

It was all a long time ago, I'm grateful I can finally see what alot of it all was and I know enough to recognise it now and stand up for myself etc, things are all ok don't worry Smile

Timefortea99 · 22/08/2017 18:46

I would agree that if someone is trafficked, that is raped. If they are a prostitute by choice, then it is not rape. It is a transaction. They are treating themselves like a commodity.

(Although they may turn to prostitution because of drugs and other circumstances, so even if they do consent, it is probably not out of choice.)

birdsdestiny · 22/08/2017 18:56

It's not consent then is it.

MrGHardy · 22/08/2017 19:06

Prickly Well thank you for explaining.

And no, you're right I can't fully understand, but what you described sounds a bit different to "they asked and I thought it was easier to say yes". Maybe you are more accustomed and knew what the poster meant.

MrsDustyBusty · 22/08/2017 19:51

What do the posters who think consent can be paid for image consent to be? Permission to use your body?

Is that really what consent means?

MrGHardy · 22/08/2017 19:54

Well what is it to you? Might be helpful to hear what you think it is.

BertrandRussell · 22/08/2017 19:59

"so even if they do consent, it is probably not out of choice.)"

So not consent then.

Dustbunny1900 · 22/08/2017 20:13

treating themselves like a commodity
No, we are treating our services like a commodity. We aren't "selling our bodies" we are selling a service. Confused

sillage · 22/08/2017 21:14

Punters pay much more money for virgin 13-year-olds than for experienced 33-year-olds, it is indeed men purchasing/renting bodies and not skilled services.

Dustbunny1900 · 22/08/2017 21:22

That's just not true. It may be true for some but not even close to being true even most of the time. Sex work is indeed a skilled service for many. Not all sex workers are active drug users who lean into cars saying "hey baby you lookin for a good time?" Or being forced underage into brothels in Thailand. It's a HUGE spectrum. highly paid escorts are not just underage warm bodies, just being It's so much more than just sitting there while being humped like in some lifetime movie.
But do continue to speak over real sex workers. This is feeling like mansplaining

Lauralou69 · 22/08/2017 21:27

Dustbunny1900, you must know that your experience of sex work is just that, your experience? There are many studies that look at the very real damaging effects of doing this work for many women.....that cannot be ignored.

Cailleach666 · 22/08/2017 21:32

dustbunny- you make valid points.

My family member worked as a prostitute for nearly 30 years, until she was 50. We have spoken at length. She was very much paid for her services.
She has taken me tours of her extensive walk in wardrobes of ( very expensive) "working" clothes. She had certain sexual specialities and could make a premium from this.
She worked as an escort also and could easily make several thousand pounds in a day.
She loved her job. She retired in her early 50s owning a house worth £2 million which she had earned in her own right.

MrsDustyBusty · 22/08/2017 21:34

Yes, a lot of men tell similar stories. Of course, there's no wedge in saying it's a nightmare.

PricklyBall · 22/08/2017 21:38

The thing is, simple economics and the way goods and services typically become "commodified" would suggest that for every independent escort catering to the "luxury" end of the market, able to vet her clients and earn a lot of money, there will be a dozen, a score of women working the "bargain basement" end of the market.

This extract, from an article on full decriminalization in Germany spells out how the commodification leads to cut prices, prostitutes effectively on "zero hours contracts" as supposedly independent contracters, lower prices per customer, and a massive increase in trafficking.

The idea of the law, passed by Chancellor Gerhard Schröder’s Social Democrat-Green coalition, was to recognise prostitution as a job like any other. Sex workers could now enter into employment contracts, sue for payment and register for health insurance, pension plans and other benefits. Exploiting prostitutes was still criminal but everything else was now above board. Two female politicians and a Berlin madam were pictured clinking their champagne glasses in celebration.

It didn’t work. “Nobody employs prostitutes in Germany,” says Beretin. None of the authorities I spoke to had ever heard of a prostitute suing for payment, either. And only 44 prostitutes have registered for benefits.

What did happen was the opening of Europe’s biggest brothel – the 12-storey, neon-wrapped Pascha in Cologne. Not to mention a rash of FKK, or “naked”, clubs where men can spend the evening drifting between the sauna, the bar and the bedrooms. Bargain-hunters might try the “flat rate” brothels, where an entry fee of between 50-100 euros buys you unlimited sex with as many women as you want, or cruise the caravans at motorway truck stops, or the drive-through “sex boxes” in the street-walking zones. (They look like stables and are known as “verrichtungsboxen” - “getting things done boxes”.)

Mittens1969 · 22/08/2017 21:40

@sillage, I don't expect it happens all that often, but I've read stories of women trapped in prostitution. (I help out with admin for a charity that highlights the issue of prostitution and trafficking so it's something I do research.)

Lauralou69 · 22/08/2017 21:48

Pricklyball, that is exactly the point I was making earlier. There is a vast difference in the high end escort (dinner in nice restaurant) and quick blow job down a back alley........

Dustbunny1900 · 22/08/2017 21:51

I find 99% of people are far more familiar with the far end of the spectrum when it comes to "sex work" (although those that are trafficked are sex slaves and rape victims, not willing sex workers ) And that does deserve a shitton of attention, of course! It's horrible.
I'm just trying to shed some light on the other end and that it's a large industry and spectrum and yes, my experience. It may not fit with what people want to think of when they think of all "sex workers" but it's another experience. I took issue with some of the generalizations and insults bandied around, that's all.

BertrandRussell · 22/08/2017 21:53

poster Cailleach666

Do you think that your relative's experience is remotely typical?

Cailleach666 · 22/08/2017 21:54

BertrandRussell

No, but it is wrong to deny it.

BertrandRussell · 22/08/2017 21:57

"There is a vast difference in the high end escort (dinner in nice restaurant) and quick blow job down a back alley........"

Is there? They are both about women being commodified and men paying for that comodity. And the acceptance that men need sex and have a right to sex and women are expected to provide sex.

The high end escort is probably having a nicer time. But she is still selling her body to a man.