Is prostitution rape?

[BayLeaves]

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning.

I am undecided on the issue as I have not really thought much on it before.

"I'm on the fence...my knowledge of prostitution consists of watching Pretty Woman and reading Belle du Jour so I'm not really qualified to comment."

That doesn't stop many other posters......

You see these two things as qualitatively different and I don't:

"1) consent being irrelevant: kidney donation for money (it's still a crime, regardless of consent)

2. Money having changed hands automatically negating consent. (prostitution as automatically rape)"

What if I rephrased #2,

2. Bribery to abuse a woman's reproductive organs (it's still a crime, regardless of consent)

People can freely sell their bodies in lots of ways without being considered an object.

As massage therapist is paid money to consent to relieve stress and tension in others, using your hands to touch the skin of a client. Why is the extension of touching genitals such a massive hurdle?

If I can consent and be paid to rub a hairy guys back why can't I consent and be paid to rub his privates?

I always think of the Friar from Romeo and Juliet saying 'My poverty but not my will consents"

No prostitution in itself isn't rape unless trafficking has been involved. But from what I've read about it a significant number of sex workers have been suffered sexual abuse and are now drug takers. So that means they're damaged and vulnerable and the clients are exploiting them. Not all, but I think it's true of a lot of them.

When as a group massage therapists have an incredibly high rate of drug use, coercion and child sexual abuse in those who practice massage therapy then I would want to be looking at that group to see what was going on.

As massage therapist is paid money to consent to relieve stress and tension in others, using your hands to touch the skin of a client. Why is the extension of touching genitals such a massive hurdle?

Because genitals are different. If your child is upset, you might rub your back, you certainly wouldn't rub their vulva/penis. The sexual organs are not the same as a nose or an elbow, and it is disingenuous to pretend that they are.

Their back, not your back

I am talking about in regards to consenting adults.

I thought that was a given.

Everyone already agrees that people that have been coerced or are addicted to drugs aren't consenting. We are talking about women (or any prostitute) that freely gives their consent. The issue some have is regarding consent and money. I am pointing out that it's OK to be paid money to consent to rub someone's body. I wouldn't exclude the genitals in that transaction? It's just a body part.

Again, talking specifically about women who claim to truly and freely consent. No coercion or drugs or abuse.

And the sky high number of prostitutes who have been sexually abused as children. Why have they not become massage therapists instead if there's no real difference. Just a massive coincidence.

I think the point for me is the clients don't know that. Out of the clients they pay, a good many are very vulnerable.

But I know it's not the case that they're all from that kind of background. And as I said, of those that are it's not the clients who have raped them, unless they are actually underage in which case it is rape.

MrGHardy can you honestly not see the difference between being the actual person inflicting the actual harm?

@birds

That doesn't address the validity of paid consent and the distinction between being paid to touching someone's back and their privates.

Of course it does. If consent is based on drug use, coercion and a history of sexual assault.

@birds,

That's already been addressed. Consent based on drugs and coercion isn't really consent. I am not disputing that.

I am talking about women, some who have posted here, who haven't been abused, don't take drugs and are not coerced. When it is a free choice.

As far as "free choice" for me although I kind of did make a free choice I was only able to contemplate making that choice as a result of multiple factors in my life at the time.

Little self confidence

Low earning capability

Job that exposed me to all kinds if people from.business people to Drs to pimps...

Embarrassment of getting myself into the situation by trying to help out a boyfriend in the first place.

And a complete desensitization to anything people could say/do

So it was a free choice as far as I got myself into it and I could get myself out of it.

But still a product of circumstances up to that point

If any of that makes sense

I believe that any man who has sex with prostitutes is a rapist, because he is willing to rape women.
Some prostitutes will believe they consented and I think you cant deny them the right to say they have consented, but by paying for sex the man has absolutely no clue if they have truelly consented. he is essentially paying to bypass consent. The man doesn't care if the woman wants to have sex with him at all, thats why he is paying, thats the entire point of paying.
A man uses a prostitute because he wants to have sex that is doesn't involve a woman's wants or a woman wanting to have sex with him. And that makes him a rapist.

AnyFucker

Where do these fucking punters crawl out from ?

P*net dog whistle still working maybe? Would explain why, yet again, we're being drawn away from the discussion at hand to discuss happy hookers, and not men's choices. Plus ca change, eh?

I am certainly not a punter nor was I a "happy hooker"

Apologies of that's how I came across I was just trying to give my experience

And what number do you think that amounts to. Those who have not been abused trafficked etc. The last figures for child abuse alone that I saw were in the 90 % bracket.

I don't think it's you they were talking about, Giles, more some of our "newly registered" friends on this thread.

I hope not. I'm just trying to be honest here.

I can't consider myself abused as that's disrespectful to those who genuinely have been.

In fact in many ways I found it kind of easier. No effort really involved. No lying. They wanted sex i gave it. Was pretty simple. No one telling me they loved me.no one ignoring my texts or calls. No buying me drinks so they can sleep with me.

It was almost refreshing to not have the bull shit in a way.

Sorry that's probably a really odd way of looking at it

No it makes sense, Giles. I remember comparing notes on our respective sexual histories with someone very close to me. She'd had over a hundred partners by the age of 21, and said often she slept with men simply because it was less effort than saying no. Not so very different (barring the money) from what happened to you. I think (though I never got to the bottom of it) that she'd been sexually abused as a child, which had totally screwed with her sense of boundaries and sense of self-worth.

I remember a poster on here (WombOfOnesOwn?) saying that she'd heard "sex pozzie feminists" defend prostitution by saying "well, it's only getting paid for something you'd be doing anyway if you like shagging a different bloke each weekend..." and commenting that this was exactly the language her pimp had used to groom her into prostitution at the age of 13/14. It's worrying that the rhetoric the "sex-pozzie" end of "feminism" uses to defend the sex industry is exactly the same language the pimps use to groom vulnerable girls into it.

I can't consider myself abused as that's disrespectful to those who genuinely have been

As others have said though. It is not so much about the (mostly) women, and their choices, it is about the (mostly) men and their choice to buy a woman.