Is prostitution rape?

[BayLeaves]

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning.

I am undecided on the issue as I have not really thought much on it before.

Personally my thoughts are no. If the woman has made the decision that she ( and she alone) wants to have sex for money then that's up to her. If a woman is trafficked or forced via a pimp or groomed into believing it is the only way to please her boyfriend/get drugs etc then yes that is rape.

Most men raping prostitutes are married or in relationships, not the can't get sex any other way sad sacks

How could you possibly know that without being either a prostitute or a punter?
Seriously, these threads are so full of bullshit and made up nonsense at times.

And no, it's not rape when it's consensual sex regardless of the exchange of money. We have our own minds, and are quite capable of giving consent or removing consent.

So that would include women using male prostitutes (of which there has been a significant increase in the past few years) and those in the porn industry (where women are paid more than men).

For me there's a middle ground which is as long as the consent is informed and there are no consequences to saying no then its not an issue. By arguing the payment alone suggests a lack of consent it moves attention away from those truely in need of safe guarding. Interestingly I find those who wish to legalise it tend to be left leaning on their political ideals.

So that would include women using male prostitutes (of which there has been a significant increase in the past few years) and those in the porn industry (where women are paid more than men).

Of course. Why would you think otherwise? Anyone using financial power to coerce someone into sex they wouldn't otherwise consent to is raping them.

Didn't say I thought otherwise, just clarifying your position.

"Didn't say I thought otherwise, just clarifying your position."

Wondering why you thought it necessary..........

Yes, you were trying to catch me out in some utterly stupid way. You were all set to call me some kind of massive feminazi who objects to men abusing women but celebrates men being abused.

Which isn't the case, although I care more about the very widespread and varied sexual abuse of women and girls than the very limited abuse of men.

Lots did you read what u wrote earlier, how I was repeatedly gang raped as a child and had what I believed at the time was consensual sex with my much older boyfriend at 14? I have plenty of experience of rape and of working with survivors as a residential SW, then a psychiatric sw, working within the prison device, running survivor support groups, self defense classes and working with rape crisis centres.

Rape is penile penetration without freely given consent. Whether that's coersed, manipulated, given from someone too young or too intoxicated or bought consent it's still without freely given consent.

Man that would be sexual assualt as rape is legally a crime of penile penetration but yes essentially it's the same thing if it's a women buying sex.

@MrsDustyBusty how on earth can you know what I intended to say? You had only referenced female prostitution not prostitution in general. Nor had you covered the obvious next step which is the world of pornography. You had up until this last post made a reasonrd argument and put your case across well.

@gonegonegone a fair comment, I had thought about that but as we were discussing hypothetical and theories decided against raising it.

"@MrsDustyBusty how on earth can you know what I intended to say?"

Oh, past experience and feminine intuition.

Yes. This:

Having sex with someone who you know isn't enjoying it seems awfully close to rape to me

And this:

Penile penetration without freely given consent. Whether that's coersed, manipulated, given from someone too young or too intoxicated or bought consent it's still without freely given consent

sum it up precisely

So how does this sit with the argument put on a recent thread that women can choose what to do with their own bodies? Are you saying women should not be allowed to choose to have sex with someone for money? Would that not contradict the backbone of feminism which is the ability to for a woman to choose?

As an aside arguing that payment removes consent would open up a legal minefield in many potentially unforseen ways.

Where do these fucking punters crawl out from ?

You had up until this last post made a reasonrd argument and put your case across well.

Thanks, Mr Teacher! I'll try and earn my merit points back!

As an aside arguing that payment removes consent would open up a legal minefield in many potentially unforseen ways.

This is not as compelling and argument as you might imagine.

mrsdustybusty

Quite, manclife - I don't think many posters have thought through what would happen if we start taking the position that adult women do not have the autonomy to decide whether or not they have consented to sex. Imagine what would happen at rape trials if defence barristers could argue that the law recognises that women cannot always determine whether or not they consent.

People get on their high horse about the morality side and don't think through the legal implications- and anyone who tries to point them out is accused of supporting prostitution.

I'm all for a Nordic model of criminalising punters. I don't support denying the autonomy of adult women to consent to sex for money. It's paternalistic and would make a nonsense of the law of rape.

No.
People just like to be dramatic.
Prostitution is seedy, and certain parts illegal, but it's not rape

You can consent and be paid for something. One doesn't negate the other. I consent to paid work. I am not coerced into it

Exactly. If you consent to sell someone your laptop, they haven't stolen your laptop.

So how does this sit with the argument put on a recent thread that women can choose what to do with their own bodies? Are you saying women should not be allowed to choose to have sex with someone for money? Would that not contradict the backbone of feminism which is the ability to for a woman to choose?

I think adult women and men, should absolutely be able to choose to sell sex. However, I feel that it should not be legal for people to buy it.

Always, always the sex industry proponents bring it back to women's behaviour and choices. Conveniently ignoring the crux of the matter.

So what IS the crux of the matter in you opinion?

Exactly. If you consent to sell someone your laptop, they haven't stolen your laptop.

Women's bodies aren't objects. When will you understand that?

I think adult women and men, should absolutely be able to choose to sell sex. However, I feel that it should not be legal for people to buy it.

Exactly.

Manclif you will find the radfems position is that punters are the rapists. No one is judging women. They have autonomy over their body and selling that autonomy leaves them without it. Women do this if they are desoerate or because of our social conditioning that teaches women their bodies are for mens pleasure. Radfems aren't going to tell individual women they are bad for working in prostitution. They look at things on a social level. Choices don't occur in a vacum, we are all highly influential by socialisation and that's the patterns radfems look at.

Same way they would challenge how women don't breastfeed because they feel squeamish about a baby sucking on their boob, or how they won't bf in public because they feel it's indecent. No rad fem would have a go at an individual woman fir these choices, her body her choice, but they would challenge the socialisation that teaches women breasts exist for male pleasure.

Same for all the public hair threads, women's body women's choice, but rad fems would look at why women are taught to make male pleasing choices, not take an individual's choice away from her.

Same with abortion- rad fems fully support a women's right to terminate for whatever reason, but they wouldn't be all laddy da about the fact so many more female fetuses are aborted than male. Looking at the reasons why this is, challenging the socialisation and rhetoric behind aborting female fetuses isn't about taking away a woman's autonomy over her body including the legal protection to abort as many female fetuses as she chooses.

Does that explain it ok?