Is prostitution rape?

[BayLeaves]

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning.

I am undecided on the issue as I have not really thought much on it before.

*starring not starting.

Selma

There are different types of rape, all as serious and as illegal. But marital rape despite being illegal is still common, often women will claim not to be rape victs despite being coerse into sex acts they don't want. I'm sure from their pov it must feel very different if a stranger jumps them in an alley and beats them unconcious and rapes them. But that doesn't make their husbands less of a rapist though.

It took me years to call what I considered to be a loving consensual sexual relationship with an older man when I was 14 rape but it was. It seemed crazy to me that this could be anything like the repeated gang rapes I experienced as a child. But in reality he coersed me, and I was too young to consent. He was every but the same type of rapist as my childhood ones, even if it didn't appear that way. Facing that, and saying that in no way makes my childhood rapists less evil or what I experience less of a crime.

Being honest about bought consent being a form of rape as buying consent is a type of coertion doesn't make those who physically force sex on prostitute's any less of a rapist.

I don't have to specify anything to a gf. It's that autonomy thing.

Yea you have a point, I suppose some wouldn't care, probably. I think my long term regulars would care, and they know I'm not, but unless you're in some dungeon they are visiting, screaming and chained up, I suppose they wouldn't know whether you have an abusive pimp behind the scenes , etc.
But I was just addressing the "is the act of agreeing to sex for money automatically rape" question.

I'm on the fence here.

I would say yes, but my OH has a family member who has worked for many years as a "high class" prostitute.
Her clients have included MPs, Barristers, senior police.
She is paid handsomely and feels very much in control of the situation, calls her clients her "stable".
Thanks to an accountant ( also a client) she was able to launder her cash, and owns a prestigious detached home in central London.
She doesn't view her job as rape.

Let me put it another way, if I was on a Jury for a rape trial and the victim was a prostitute and the accused was a client, whatever money had changed hands would in no way convince me the accused had a reasonable belief in consent. It doesn't matter if 1000s of sex workers view their interactions as 100% consenting, in fact if they do fantastic as they are never likely to be in court accusing men of rape. I'm simply speaking to a hypothetical situation where a man has raped, and the presence of money would in no way establish consent by itself.

Well said dervel

It's all speculation. You can think it's rape, you can think what you like. On that basis probably about 50% of men are raping women on a regular basis.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

Lots I don't think that figure is alarmist or surprising here.

Alot more men rape women than is admitted, they just constantly self justify with she was up for it or she came back to his or she consented to one sex act so consented to all or she consented when we started so I have a right to finish or she consented several drinks ago so it doesn't matter that she's semi conscious now or well she's been my girlfriend for a month now so if I pester* her enough she'll give in.

Many rapists wouldn't describe themselves as such but they are.

*Coerse

I gave to agree. People assume that women working in the sex industry are 'vulnerable, forced and raped' where we don't look at the amount if women in 'normal society' being raped and abused on a daily basis. I can only talk from experience, and I did see the occasional vulnerable person, but generally the women called the shots. With punters too. They would call meh that didn't necessarily want servicing that day and make them visit them. It's all very corruptive but it does make me scoff when I read things that insinuate all the women in this line of work are being forced. It kind of makes me angry that people assume that.

Hope you can understand my typos

Gone what is your definition of rape?
I was raped once when I was in my teens, it was horrific, I felt out of control and even though I said no these boys forced themselves upon me.

When I worked in the sex industry I called the shots, nobody ever made me do anything I didn't want to do. They Tebet respected me.

From someone who has experienced both, prostitution is not rape.

Why do prostitutes have such high rates of PTSD?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2615337/
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3508959/

www.nytimes.com/1998/08/18/science/many-prostitutes-suffer-combat-disorder-study-finds.html?mcubz=1

THE world's oldest profession may also be among its most traumatizing. A new study has found that a serious psychiatric illness resulting from exposure to physical danger is more common among prostitutes than among troops who have weathered combat duty.

It's all good lotsa , and I'm not going to tell you your life's experience. If it was all fine for you and you enjoyed it that's great. I wouldn't dream of telling you you were raped if that isn't reflective of your experience. It's just that I don't think money can buy consent, someone may have been paid and in addition have consented. I.E a person likes sex anyway and has the power/agency to vet people from a pool of people they may have considered hopping on the good foot and doing the bad thing with anyway.

What concerns me is where did all the men go who didn't meet the standards of the self aware and happy providers? I remember reading about that super brothel in Germany and that quite frankly chilled me.

Lotsof- there are lots of things I don't know. But one thing I do know- the punters did not respect you.

Derval-I agree. Money in no way means they automatically consented..and it doesn't mean they automatically haven't, either. I was actually in jury duty and there was a prostitue accusing a client of rape, and I had to sit and hear my fellow jurors (most women unfortunately) go on about how "you can't rape a prozzie!"

Which is another reason the prostitution=rape thing bothers me, it feeds into the you-can't-rape-a-whore-anyways mentality so prevalent where I am. Like it's all the same. I don't like the many consensual business transactions I did compared or likened to the horrific and traumatizing experiences I've also had. (Not saying you specifically are saying that of course, just talking about the general argument)

"because any prostitute can refuse sex with any particular man for whatever reason"

This is so very untrue. I'd wager there isn't a woman reading this who hasn't feared a man's reaction to her refusal (maybe outright violence, maybe retaliatory in some other way). Safe to assume the pile of prostituted bodies men have made is comprised of prostitutes who refused being murdered, to say nothing of the unseen piles of rape victims who also failed to refuse punters demands.

Then there are the punters who relish violating her "No", who pay to force themselves on prostitutes specifically because they trust her illegality protects his violence from being reported.

A prostituted woman once said that a man attacked her on the street not knowing she was a prostitute, and when she said she was one and would do anything he wanted if he would stop attacking her, then he started punching her harder. He wanted to break something unbroken, and she ruined his sadistic fun by being already ruined.

Dustbunny I know precisely what you mean, it should be possible to square the circle and respect anyone as a human being no matter their personal circumstances. I am concerned that we can inadvertently play into the objectifying of women by pushing the prostitution = automatic rape too far.

I hope promoting the idea that money doesn't automatically buy consent is an easier sale philosophically, you don't rob the happy hookers of their agency. The opprobrium should be rightly reserved for the men who use prostitutes, no man I have ever argued with has been able to argue the point that by using prostitutes (especially frequently) you are sooner or later going to be sleeping with a coerced/trafficked individual.

The best they can usually come up with its not their responsibility and bring up sweatshops in India making all our trainers or some such bollocks. To which my response: "Ok you may not be holding the whip, but unlike the sweatshops in India you ARE the whip ie the instrument inflicting the damage." At which point it's usually ....

Christ, I wish people would stop referring to us all as ‘prostituted women’, as though someone is ‘doing’ it to us and we have no agency of our own.

I certainly am glad I wasn't doing it long enough to find out why happened when I said no.

There was something about my "pimp" that although he seemed to be an ok guy I just wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him. One of the clients I had was in the police. Knew it was wrong but thought somehow not having actual sex made it less serious somehow.

One of his other girls was telling me about the sponges she used when she was on her period so something told me no one had the excuse for saying no.

Incidently she was only doing it as her ex ran off and left her with a child and didn't pay for the kid.

As I said I do consider myself very fortunate that nothing bad happened that wasn't the case for some of the other girls.

It doesn't even bother me that I did it tbh I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I should care more but I think that my standard or expectations of myself were so low at that point anyway and even now I have to confess to having a hard time determining what's on and what's not with regards to people's actions towards/treatment of me that really anything short of the blatantly obvious I'd just simply shrug off or not even register.

gonegone I absolutely believe in the horrific experiences of prostituted women. My concern is that it is counter-productive to characterise all prostitution as rape.

I agree with Derval's point that handing over/accepting money does not equal consent. But the OP asks exactly the opposite: does handing over money automatically invalidate consent, even if the woman concerned is adamant that she has consented. I don't believe it does. That doesn't mean that I don't think prostitution is vile - I do.

Surely the point of raping a prostitute is that the punters know they don't really want to have sex with them and absent money, wouldn't pass them on the street? That's the ultimate exercise of lovely, lovely power, isn't it?

So does that equate across the 'money for sex' spectrum?

Yeah, I think so. The whole point is to use money to get a woman to do something she wouldn't otherwise do. Most men raping prostitutes are married or in relationships, not the can't get sex any other way sad sacks that we're supposed to pity and see prostitution as A Good Thing to help.