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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

White women- it's all your fault

477 replies

WeldMeDaphne · 19/08/2017 22:27

I will preface this by saying that I am indeed a white woman. And I realise this affords me a lot of privilege.
Among a lot of the rhetoric around the Events unfolding in the US (mostly Charlottesville), I've seen a number of open letters to white women about our complicity in the neo-nazi and white supremacist movement in the US and elsewhere. Clearly those women marching last week on the nazi side were white, but there was a lot of suggestion that those white women not marching but associated with men marching (wives girlfriends etc) were just as culpable as the men wielding torches and assault rifles. I guess I would like some help understanding how this is a white woman issue rather than the white men being responsible for their own actions? I get that one of those pieces said those men are going home to pie cooked by their doting wives but I just feel as though a man who holds those views and has no issue with demonstrating them publically is unlikely to be a caring loving husband?
I am fully prepared to listen to all view points and I totally understand that the people on these marches are white, but they're mostly men, right? Sonhow is this women's fault?

OP posts:
muchomo · 22/08/2017 18:42

No, but the tone of several posts on here seems quite close to saying white women simply by existing are part of the problem I don't think that's been said at, however I think somebody people here are not used to hearing or being challenged by Black Women/Feminists on their views. So they resort to presenting themselves as victims. On this post I have been accused of being racist, advocating for rape of women, among other things just because people didn't agree with my views and perspective as a woman of colour

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/08/2017 18:42

MotherPeresA

There has been quite a lot of lecturing at white women going on here

You know you sound like an MRA, right?

I really don't - for the reason Sylvia says. Like Morris I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do or how exactly I am to blame for white supremacist men or women on the other side of the Atlantic.

I live in Scotland- outside of Glasgow , Scotland does not have a particularly diverse diverse population. I don't think it is a particularly racist society despite its lack of diversity but possibly the entire white population of Scotland and the Scottish government should be lectured at too.

muchomo · 22/08/2017 18:46

At no point have I or any other poster stated that simply by existing White Women are at fault. Of course not all White Women are like this or racist and it's pretty obvious no one has said such a ridiculous and untrue thing. However instead of behaving like your being victimised just accept that Wonen of colour have different experiences including dealing with racism, inequality and sexism in a way White wine don't experience.

muchomo · 22/08/2017 18:46

Whoops not White wine, White Women

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/08/2017 18:47

So they resort to presenting themselves as victims

I have not seen anyone here doing that. I see several posters perplexed why redneck white supremacists of either sex on the other side of the Atlantic are somehow a problem which is their responsibility to solve.

MrGHardy · 22/08/2017 18:49

Sylvia exactly, I am saying to me that makes them complicit.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/08/2017 18:50

However instead of behaving like your being victimised just accept that Wonen of colour have different experiences including dealing with racism, inequality and sexism in a way White wine don't experience

No one has denied that. There has been a lot about white women not doing enough - whatever that might mean , you have already made it clear it is not for you to say what that might mean- someone else posted" don't be racist" - fine. I'm not.

SylviaPoe · 22/08/2017 18:53

'You're suggesting MRAs never get all indignant at women 'lecturing them' and holding them to account for the behaviour of other men??'

No, I'm not suggesting that at all.

SylviaPoe · 22/08/2017 18:56

Hardy, absolutely people can be complicit in something. We can still make a distinction between different crimes. And we must do in a democratic society.

HorridHenryrule · 22/08/2017 18:57

He had schizophrenia so the health care system in America isn't fantastic or supportive as long as you can pay. That mother was left to get on with it. In England the reason I can say that is because we are looked after by the state. We have parenting course and prescription drugs if we need. There's more support for families who are struggling with their children. If the child doesn't go to school then they are locking up the parents.

Is the problem not having enough support services for families to access?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/08/2017 18:57

MotherPeresA

There has been quite a lot of lecturing at white women going on here

You know you sound like an MRA, right?

Actually thinking about your comment what a wonderful tactic- don't respond to anything specifically but throw out a random general insult. Now I wonder who might resort to such tactics?

HorridHenryrule · 22/08/2017 18:59

The thread moved on my post was to Gonegonegone.

quencher · 22/08/2017 19:01

No, but the tone of several posts on here seems quite close to saying white women simply by existing are part of the problem. There has been quite a lot of lecturing at white women going on here. Possibly, not far off. Look at in the same way you would judge sexism/misogyny. Most men are likely to be misogynistic because of the status quo in the society they have been brought up in. (To clarify, they have not been born sexist) Almost guilty until proven innocent, rightly so. Well the same applies to racism and white women are in the white category. Note: I am not calling every white woman a racist. Most black people who meet white people will have to judge whether the person is racist or not and this includes white women and not just white men.

By denying this, you are absolving your self of racism. Well, a person of colour will have to be the judge of that. The same way women would have to be the judge of whether a man is sexist or not. Men

I'm just wondering why we are talking so little about that group I think because to someone like me they are small problem manifesting a bigger and wider problem which is ingrained every where. The threat from them is no different to that you would receive from MRA group. However, what's is happening everyday is far greater and more damaging because it's in every part or most of our society. That's why.

Gonegonegone · 22/08/2017 19:07

During/after brexit I saw numerous posts from friends back home in Scotland saying everyone feeling under threat or unwelcome in England were welcome in Scotland. That's the general atmosphere I remember from growing up there. That I wasn't born there mattered not at all to anyone.

SylviaPoe · 22/08/2017 19:08

'The threat from them is no different to that you would receive from MRA group. However, what's is happening everyday is far greater and more damaging because it's in every part or most of our society. That's why.'

If this is a widely held belief, I'm not going to worry too much about the alt right then. I must have been assuming the threat from them was far greater than it is.

Gonegonegone · 22/08/2017 19:11

Yes horrid I agree with that general statement but my point was there are numerous threads on twitter & forums & statements on FB about how his mother was to blame for his violence. Despite her being a victim of his violence. And vulnerable by being disabled. On these threads no one was addressing that he was responsible for his violence. (And for the record people with schizophrenia are much more likely to be the victim of violence not the perpetrators, that's true even of males with schizophrenia).

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/08/2017 19:28

By denying this, you are absolving your self of racism. Well, a person of colour will have to be the judge of that. The same way women would have to be the judge of whether a man is sexist or not

Well that is inarguable isn't it? Because any response denying my racism is taken as proof of my racism. For what it is worth I don't agree it is unilaterally for women to judge whether behaviour is sexist- It is actually possible to call out sexism where none exists - but hey that probably makes me an MRA too.!

FlatPacker · 22/08/2017 19:30

Muchomo what is your purpose posting on here? When you are asked to explain, you say it's not your place to educate white women. When people try to engage you in a positive way, you say they are condescending. When people debate you, you say they are not used to debating with WOC. When all these questions are exhausted, you defend your rhetoric by saying it is the same as feminist rhetoric (part of my agrees with this i.e. that some fems use this rhetoric, but I personally have always hated the 'men are rapist' class statements). I am honestly at a loss as to why you bother posting on here at all. My personal conclusion is that you wish to set up two oppressed groups against each other: women and POC. I would be very happy for you to disagree with me and explain why.

grandOlejukeofYork · 22/08/2017 19:31

Well, a person of colour will have to be the judge of that

Nope. Someone else doesn't get to decide what I am thinking. The arrogance of thinking they can!

DumbledoresApprentice · 22/08/2017 19:33

How can women and POC be set against each other? Half of all POC are women. Their issues are women's issues.

HorridHenryrule · 22/08/2017 19:35

Black women have the issue of racism to deal with.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/08/2017 19:36

Well there posters on here having a jolly good try at it.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/08/2017 19:38

NoLoveofMine

Well the women who are married to white supremacists are white supremacists themselves and vile people

I'm quoting NoLove from the first page- not sure much more needed to be said.

FlatPacker · 22/08/2017 19:39

quencher Tue 22-Aug-17 19:01:57
Look at in the same way you would judge sexism/misogyny. Most men are likely to be misogynistic because of the status quo in the society they have been brought up in. (To clarify, they have not been born sexist) Almost guilty until proven innocent, rightly so.

I can not speak for all feminists. I speak only for myself. When I meet a new man, I don't think they are likely to be misogynistic. Depending where I am, I may expect them to hold some misogynistic ideas. I believe there is a difference.

SylviaPoe · 22/08/2017 19:45

The difference between prejudice and discrimination maybe Flatpacker.

I assume men hold sexist opinions. I don't assume they are going to participate in sex discrimination deliberately.

They may however participate in institutional sexism.