White women- it's all your fault

[WeldMeDaphne]

I will preface this by saying that I am indeed a white woman. And I realise this affords me a lot of privilege.
Among a lot of the rhetoric around the Events unfolding in the US (mostly Charlottesville), I've seen a number of open letters to white women about our complicity in the neo-nazi and white supremacist movement in the US and elsewhere. Clearly those women marching last week on the nazi side were white, but there was a lot of suggestion that those white women not marching but associated with men marching (wives girlfriends etc) were just as culpable as the men wielding torches and assault rifles. I guess I would like some help understanding how this is a white woman issue rather than the white men being responsible for their own actions? I get that one of those pieces said those men are going home to pie cooked by their doting wives but I just feel as though a man who holds those views and has no issue with demonstrating them publically is unlikely to be a caring loving husband?
I am fully prepared to listen to all view points and I totally understand that the people on these marches are white, but they're mostly men, right? Sonhow is this women's fault?

Sylvia

Don't see my post so will write again.

You are exactly right. And I am just saying they are complicit. We are in a world with so much exchange of information so much animosity, that even just not saying anything means tacit approval. Regardless of whether you are the President or just a family member. A President may be a role model for all (well not this one) but a family should always be role models for each other. So that point of yours does not hold.

If someone is a family member of a person they know to be a white supremacist, yes, they should attempt to encourage that person not to be a white supremacist.

I've never argued otherwise.

Lass

You're taking it as an insult? That's up to you, but it was merely an observation.

There are patterns to online debate. For example, you are attempting a subtle smear of my intent with your last comment "I wonder why that might be" and such insinuations are a common form of frustrated ad hominem are they not?

My point - consistent on this issue - has been that the indignant defences posed on this thread, by women belonging to a privileged class (challenged by an oppressed one) are no different to the protestations of many challenged by feminism. woc are challenging the position of the OP and some posters can't handle it. Like I said, it reads like Not All White Women.

I haven't - to pick you up on an aspect of something you've accused me of - had a great deal to respond to. However, to spare you the trouble of going back through the thread, I have roughly continued by adding that I think there's an assumption of one-size-fits-all feminism that sorts us all into neat boxes and creates solidarity between all women. This is a useful way to look at things, but flawed if taken in isolation (which it so often is).

I would add that many of the most disadvantaged women - woc for example - see it this way, and fail to feel much solidarity with, say, wealthy middle class New Statesman columnists, or white British women getting all worked up about matters in Charlottesville as if THEY are victims of something. It's a remarkable conceit.

'woc are challenging the position of the OP...'

Are they? I hadn't noticed. This thread is largely about a totally different topic than the actual OP's position.

'...and some posters can't handle it.'

There was one poster who did flounce. Everyone else is still here, and nobody seems to consider themselves a victim or victimised on the thread.

MotherPeres. I think the interpretation that this thread is all about the femz....because - wait for it - this is the feminist chat section of MN. This feminist angle (minor of course compared with the race aspect) is of interest to posters here - well, to me at least, and I can only speak for myself.

But WOC are just as much part of feminism as white women. If they are expected to put their issues aside and focus on the ones that mainstream feminism decides are important then I think there is some validity saying actually this is white feminism. It's not up to us as white women to dictate to WOC what feminist issues are. They are just as much women as we are. Their issues should be important to us.

Transactivists spend alot of time telling women we can't question what is transphobia and just have to shut up and accept what they tell us too.

White women have greater privilege than woc but we aren't the privileged class when we are women. And plenty of us will experience xenophobia, ablism, lesbophobia, anti semitism and so on also.

I imagine the feminist aspect is rather important when posted on the feminist board.

What issues does mainstream feminism consider important?

Sylvia - I make an observation, you deny it, and then I'm obliged to spend an hour cutting and pasting examples into a reply only for you to then change the subject. Been there, done that, got wiser... Nice silencing technique. If you wish to disagree with something that's demonstrably obvious that's up to you.

My point concerns the OP and much that has followed, namely "what have the actions of these white people got to do with me? I'm not racist" and "those poor women married to the white supremacists." Quencher (was it Quencher?) I think dealt with problematic elements of this far more eloquently than I did.

Very happy to read responses, but I'll not by replying. I'm only repeating myself now.

Yes, Peresa, I can see that those points have been made.

Those poor white women supremacists I do feel sorry for them that they feel like that. Spending there whole life living with hate what a thing to live with. It's like dicease.

Disease

I wonder how many posters actually know real life Trump voters?

The ones that I know voted for him despite his pussy-grabbing misogyny. Some of these are women, who looked at Hillary and didn't like what they saw and hated the guilt-trip being laid on them to vote for her purely because they both have a vagina.

If this is a widely held belief, I'm not going to worry too much about the alt right then. I must have been assuming the threat from them was far greater than it is. You would worry if you thought it was part of the system in which you lived. They are just the braver people willing to show their faces rather than practice passive aggressiveness. Being racist but pretend like they are not and it's all your fault for making complaints. "Is because you are black" as the reason for any racial complaint.

Well that is inarguable isn't it? Because any response denying my racism is taken as proof of my racism. No! Your actions are. You deny it it is always taken at face value. The same way I could say how wonderful, nice or whatever good qualities I could assign myself, in the grand scheme of things I would have to prove how great I am for it to be taken seriously.

Nope. Someone else doesn't get to decide what I am thinking. The arrogance of thinking they can! I would rather be arrogant and know the system of oppression around me and how it works than be educated and clueless. For any further explanation see the above paragraph.

I can not speak for all feminists. I speak only for myself. Yes, but your views should be part of the bigger goal. If not, then what are you fighting for? Separating your issues and making it personal takes it away from the main aim. All black women's issues are my issues, all sexist issues are mine and all race issues are my issues. Everything wrong that happens in those three areas has the potential to affect me and that makes it my issue.

When I meet a new man, I don't think they are likely to be misogynistic. Depending where I am, I may expect them to hold some misogynistic ideas. I believe there is a difference. I think holding some misogynistic ideas makes that person part of the problem. If they didn't believe it they would not think of it as something worth keeping as view. The same way you cannot hold some racist ideas and not be racist. You may not act on it. But if you can know they hold that view it means they have either stated or acted it out for for it to be known.

They voted for him instead a toddler. Do they blame them self's for all this hate being generated in Charlottesville.

Totally confused by the way this thread has gone I'm totally open to accepting I have subconscious bias - as a feminist who is on the receiving end of unconscious sexism from men all the time, I have to assume as a white woman I am unconsciously racist to black people often and I try to watch out for it.
However I don't believe it's fair to expect white feminists to get white racist women to deal with issues caused by their white racist husbands/sons/friends. It's just a step too far for me. And some of the posts on here by much, mother and quencher seem to suggest that's what is expected.

I also am surprised that people think white women are "playing the victim" when they suggest women are expected to take responsibility for the world's problems. I thought that was a fairly universal experience of womanhood, one WOC feel more acutely due to the history of slavery/jobs in service but not one white women are immune from.

I also hate this "educate yourself" thing. I don't understand the issues because I'm white. I try to listen and I try to get it but due to my biases it's hard. I need to hear from WOC to try to understand. That isn't at all the same as an MRA saying we have to provide stats then saying "but women do it too!"

It's really disappointing as I thought OP had a good point even if the thread title was clunky.

*The difference between prejudice and discrimination maybe Flatpacker.

I assume men hold sexist opinions. I don't assume they are going to participate in sex discrimination deliberately.

They may however participate in institutional sexism.* Exactly and that still makes it sexist/ part of sexism. It is not a lesser crime but part of the problem.

*woc are challenging the position of the OP...'

Are they? I hadn't noticed. This thread is largely about a totally different topic than the actual OP's position.*those who stayed are saying the op is wrong. I, my self I have stated that most white women cannot absolve themselves from racism. This has been explained up thread. What I have had is people defending themselves for not being racist. To which I stated they are missing the point completely because it's not just about them on this thread. It's about the wider group of white women,the role white women played in building those statues and I infantilisation of white women like they can't be racist. Yes, this was a counter argument to the op above and in more detail.
I am not going to start repeating myself.

Quencher, I meant worrying about something to the level of a military coup, mass murder and other similar atrocities. That's where I saw the alt right heading.

I meant worrying about something to the level of a military coup, mass murder and other similar atrocities. That's where I saw the alt right heading. Mmm! I thought they were already there minus the military coup (but I would not put that pass the police with the constant shot to kill and the infiltration of the kkk plus the way gun laws work in America. Board-line what you have stated from a black person's point of view). That is why I said it's part of what is already there.

In that case, it's really an issue for the UN to deal with.

Their head office is in the same country, hopefully they will get involve to protect their head office if things did go pear shaped.

The mass murder is not a new thing. Lynching is not new. We all know they are capable of it. Unlawful imprisonment is nothing new. Having a coup is nothing new. The civil war happened and they have never gotten over it. They have a enough guns. If it happens, I am not surprised at all, is that surprising and shocking?

Secondly, the FBI had been fighting black groups to stop coups forming all these years because they believe their is potential and it's possible. If there is potential on one side what stops it from happening on the other side with the police on their side and with more reason to do so and a leader who support them?

It isn't shocking, given how unstable the rest of the world is; there's no reason to expect the US to be any different.

An example how some white women are part of the problem.
Quote, "bad history is good history" ie referring to slavery in defence of he what is happening in Charlottesville.

Sorry I forgot to put the link.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/katrina-pierson-slavery-good-historyuss_599af2e8e4b0e8cc855f000b?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000051

MotherPeresa how long did you spend on that pompous , self -congratulatory response?

And you have the hypocrisy to say I sounded like an MRA?

O wad some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us! sadly not a gift that has been given to you.