Feminism as "let's be nice to everyone"

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

I've started getting the rage with celebrities and women I know who like to virtue signal about the importance of feminism, but then make the definition of feminism so broad that's it's useless.

Some things I've seen lately that have made my teeth clench include "feminism works for all genders", "feminism is another word for equalism", "we can only make feminism work if we get men on side, so let's be nice to them" "here's a list of things feminism works on for men" etc etc.

One thing that REALLY pissed me off was Emma-Feminist-Watson (I know...) saying that boys not being able to cry was the "saddest thing" she could think of and it just really brought home to me how feminism has turned from this fight to liberate woman, to this platitude designed to show that you're nice but "don't worry, not in a threatening way". Seriously, you can't think of a single thing SADDER than a bloke being emotionally stunted?

How did it happen that mainstream feminism started focusing on the emotional needs of men, rather than the increasing rates of DV and sexual violence? How did the conversation shift from "we need to fund these shelters for women" to "we need to make sure men have refuges [that never get used]"?

Also I find FWR worryingly closed minded.

Do you mean close minded in the support of other types of feminism? Or over the issues discussed?

Ideas you disagree with need exploring not dismissing.

Sure - but it's a feminist chat board, not the BBC, there's no mandate for providing only a balanced view. And you can take that too far - I don't know how many threads I've seen on porn and prostitution being taken over entirely by posters I know are men, and that DOES need dismissing, because this is not the forum for men to explain why they need porn.

Sophocles, I too think it's "ok for feminists to disagree". What I disagree with and am challenging are the viewpoints expressed here that liberal feminism is poison and passive. It is not true. Many of those I work with and who have worked with me in the past class themselves as liberal feminists. These are women who work at the coal face.

What benefit is it to feminism to dismiss them the way they have been dismissed on this thread?

I don't think there's any benefit to dismissing whole swathes of feminism. I think (most) posters have been careful not to do that, but to identify a particularly pernicious form of feminism-lite, that's a bit of a trojan horse. Pricklyball's post of 18.08 yesterday sums it up perfectly for me.

"BertrandRussell what do you do if you disagree? Well you disagree. What you don't do is point a finger and say "you are not a feminist". All wings of the movement play a role."

Do they? I think there are beliefs which mean that a person is not a feminist.

Liberal feminism is passive, it's wearing a t-shirt or badge and doing sod all.

Perhaps I didn't mean liberals when I said this? I mean the MPs who wore the t shirts but cut maternity grants and who classify women as anyone who wants to be one, and are therefore making sex segregation a thing of the past. I'm talking about the women who say prostitution and porn are valid choices and are therefore happy to see women and girls raped as part of their 'job'. It's the women who do see unfairness in society, but rather than doing anything about making it fairer, say we should tackle male suicide first and try to get more men working in child care.

Maybe these women aren't liberal feminist, and I'm sorry if I've offended anybody by claiming that they are.

I don't care what people call themselves but any woman that supports the damaging trans-ideology and 'sex-work' is not a feminist in my opinion

There are certain positions/ideas that are just so damaging to women that no one who holds them can call thenselves a feminist.

And just prefacing such opinions with I'm a feminist won't change that.

Like racists who start a sentence with I'm not racist but...

Feminism has taken an odd detour into the trans ideology. In their quest for validation transactivists determinedly call themselves feminists, whilst being rank misogynists. It's nothing more than a label to tack on to their version of womanhood. Because anything to do with being female, not only has to involve them, but also has to include things that are male. Usually at the forefront.

The women who support that, will often call themselves feminists. And with no concept of self awareness, call other feminists terfs and swerfs.

If you add in those more liberal feminists who, although supportive of women, still want to be inclusive, you get a muddying of the waters over what constitutes feminism.

Then you get sites like Everday Feminism, run by people who call themselves feminists and do talk about feminist issues, but also support trans-women, it sets up an unreconcilable dichotomy.

Which leads to division.

Liberal feminism may well have different ideas to radical feminism, worth discussing, but it is now being dismissed because many have an allegiance to the trans-ideology.

Datum closed minded in that rad fem is right and everything else is not worthy of discussion and should not even be deemed feminist.

"If you don't agree with then you have no right to call yourself a feminist."

A position expressed in a number of recent posts. By closing down who is 'allowed' to be feminist you alienate swathes of the population. Your moral purity is intact but the movement is damaged.

As I said any movement needs:

1. a radical vanguard 2)a group of activists
2. support withing the populace.

By saying liberal feminists are not really feminist you are alienating groups 2 & 3. Your movement is useless, pointless a laughing stock.

As has been convincingly argued we are facing a massive backlash we need to remain relevant and engaged. We also need people to push the boundaries of debate with radical ideas. But at the moment with the assertion that "you, you and you are not real feminists" you will turn round looking for support and no one will be there.

Mousse my point is that I think a lot of what passes for feminism at the current time isn't particularly nice or good for women and I am under no obligation to pander to it. Or to you. And that's the end of it really. You're trying to present yourself as the voice of reason. You aren't. You need to examine your own views before telling others how to behave. Tone policing is generally considered inflammatory, so you might want to think about that.

Right, 2 questions.

What, in your opinion, is a radical feminist?

And do you think there are any beliefs at all that mean you can't be a feminist?

Moussemoose

I understand what you're saying. But do you see how this might have happened with a new influx of people calling themselves feminists, but being anything but? I don't mean people who disagree with radical feminism, I mean bona fide misogynists.

This rampant demand from women who would never have considered themselves feminists. Who are not only calling themselves feminists, but demanding that feminism centres men, in the fullest possible way.

Suddenly every other woman is calling herself a feminist, but only in terms of transactivism.

What about

"If you think that legalisation of prostitution is a good idea or that prostitution is just a job like any other then you are in my view as reprehensible as a drunk driver and I don't care what you call yourself"

BertrandRussell

What, in your opinion, is a radical feminist? well that's an interesting trap to lay and one I won't fall into. I'm not a sociologist but I can provide a quote. Do a quick google search that's where my information has been sourced

"Radical feminism is a philosophy emphasizing the patriarchal roots of inequality between men and women, or, more specifically, social dominance of women by men. Radical feminism views patriarchy as dividing rights, privileges and power primarily by gender, and as a result oppressing women and privileging men"

And do you think there are any beliefs at all that mean you can't be a feminist?
That is much more interesting. Yes, I suppose everyone must draw the line somewhere. Is a feminist a mother conspiring for her daughter to be cut (FGM) who wants what is best for her daughter. Are we in a position to condom her when she is doing the 'best' for her child? Or does she have individual responsibility? Is a liberal or a class analysis more appropriate?

So far we have said not opposing all pornography, all forms of prostitution, some trans activists means you can't possibly be a feminist. I would disagree with that. I would take a more nuanced view. I am more than capable of disappearing up my own backside when being liberal.

I am not trying to debate the issues but more the absolute dismissal of non politicised women who wander haplessly into FWR.

Ereshkigal I can only apologise for trying to present myself as the 'voice of reason' I will desist immediately.

"I am not trying to debate the issues but more the absolute dismissal of non politicised women who wander haplessly into FWR."

I honestly don't think this happens.

I admit to being pretty short with the "pole dancing is empowering" tendency, and with the person who said that objecting to mainstream pornography was suppressing a legitimate outlet for women's sexuality, but I can't imagine dismissing a genuinely non politicized woman who was seeking information.

And I think we do ourselves no favours by the "anything a woman does is by definition a feminist act" approach. We need to be alert and aware- we need to read and think and help each other and not allow out hard won rights to be diluted. And we must keep the needs of women front and centre. We live in dangerous times.

You're not a voice of reason. That's the point. You're sneering and belittling just as much as anyone. You've been personally rude to me. I was speaking generally. Give it a rest.

I don't think there is any benefit to dismissing whole swathes of feminism.
Me neither, yet it is what happens regularly with liberal feminism on this board. Not only do I not think it's beneficial to feminism, I think it's harmful.

Bigdeskbob thank you for your apology, but yours was not the only post on this thread where it happened.

I am not trying to debate the issues but more the absolute dismissal of non politicised women who wander haplessly into FWR.

That sums it up, to me. One won't ever understand the politicised issues unless there is debate.

You will, obviously, get people alienated from the get go. But as most feminists are logical and rational, often people will stick around on the basis of that, despite disagreeing with what's being said.

Given that so much of online talk is just a whole stream of insults, actually seeing people reasoning with each other, can be quite unusual.

So are you - the liberal feminists- saying that absolutely anything goes? It is wrong to challenge any belief? That if a woman says "I am a faminist" that must be accepted without question? No debate, no disagreement?

Bert, given that I am here challenging some of the beliefs posted on this thread it would be a "no" from me.

So what would someone have to believe for you to say they couldn't be a feminist?

I spent quite a long time earlier in the thread carefully distinguishing between the views of a liberal feminist who might offer a defence of, say, prostitution, pointing out that while I might disagree with points in her reasoning and hence not agree with her conclusion, at least she and I shared the starting point of caring about harm done to women, and thus even though her end conclusions differed from mine, I would still counter her as a feminist.

Now Mousse posts So far we have said not opposing all pornography, all forms of prostitution, some trans activists means you can't possibly be a feminist. I would disagree with that. I would take a more nuanced view. I am more than capable of disappearing up my own backside when being liberal.

I'm getting rather tired of trying to discuss this in good faith and having what I'm actually saying completely misrepresented and replaced with a straw woman. (And that's before we get onto other, more aggressive parts of the ongoing misrepresentation of what I've actually said.)

If someone said that women should be denied opportunities and protection under law that men are afforded, I would probably say that they can't be considered feminist.

How do you think it benefits feminism to dismiss liberal feminism and disregard/minimise the work done by liberal feminists as has been done on this thread Bert?

"How do you think it benefits feminism to dismiss liberal feminism and disregard/minimise the work done by liberal feminists as has been done on this thread Bert?"

I don't know about the work done by liberal feminists. Tell me about it.