Feminism as "let's be nice to everyone"

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

I've started getting the rage with celebrities and women I know who like to virtue signal about the importance of feminism, but then make the definition of feminism so broad that's it's useless.

Some things I've seen lately that have made my teeth clench include "feminism works for all genders", "feminism is another word for equalism", "we can only make feminism work if we get men on side, so let's be nice to them" "here's a list of things feminism works on for men" etc etc.

One thing that REALLY pissed me off was Emma-Feminist-Watson (I know...) saying that boys not being able to cry was the "saddest thing" she could think of and it just really brought home to me how feminism has turned from this fight to liberate woman, to this platitude designed to show that you're nice but "don't worry, not in a threatening way". Seriously, you can't think of a single thing SADDER than a bloke being emotionally stunted?

How did it happen that mainstream feminism started focusing on the emotional needs of men, rather than the increasing rates of DV and sexual violence? How did the conversation shift from "we need to fund these shelters for women" to "we need to make sure men have refuges [that never get used]"?

It is a backlash that disguises as feminism.

Men hate feminism. But since women have more economic power now, men cannot just go and openly admit that they hate feminism and want to continue to exploit and oppress us.

So they make feminism all about men, and brand that as the good feminism, and feminism that's actually about women as bad feminism.

It is like men not wanting to admit that they rape when you ask them whether they rape, but openly admit they'd "force a woman to have sex", which is exactly the same as rape, but by another name.

Most men are still just fine with oppressing women, they just want to call themselves feminists while doing it.

And women happily go along with it, because they want to be feminists, but don't want to be unpopular with most males, which being a real feminist would inevitably lead to.

As men get nastier women get more compliant and placating. Or maybe its me getting older and more cynical.
IMO there has been a deliberate, long term strategy of infiltration and shifting peoples opinions step by step to the right.

Except for radical feminists, who are still pretty much saying the same things. We seem to be immune to the bullshit. I believe thats because radfems value the truth.
We have integrity.
We are honest.
We dont need it sugar coating.
We get that popularity contests are worthless.
We can regulate our own behaviour and expect others to do the same.

We have such a different mindset that it seems alien and very scary to people who are taken in by cults and need the safety of belonging to the popular group.

It's a constant refrain on Mumsnet, isn't it? "Oh, I don't go on the feminist boards/I'm not a feminist because feminists are so nasty. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, you know. Just be nice!"

Why do they do it?

Patriarchal conditioning. They're heterosexual and want to get laid (I honestly think this is a huge part of the man-pleasing strand of liberal feminism among younger feminists). Fear of male violence (because saying "no, that's actually shit behaviour" doesn't garner a polite rebuttal, it can lead to a punch in the face). A hope to get the crumbs from under the table (if we put all our effort into getting men in touch with their emotions instead of repression leading to violence then maybe, just maybe, they'll be a bit nicer to us, and we won't need those women's refuges that got closed down).

And a backlash - a massive fucking backlash. Fuelled by the libertarian right using identity politics, intersectionality and the primacy of individual feelings as a Trojan horse to infiltrate the liberal end of the left wing.

I think PricklyBall has it.

I think women are always being guilt tripped into being the bigger/nicer person.

For example, every time misogyny within the Labour Party and Momentum is questioned we're berated for bringing it up and letting the Tories eat babies.

No. Just no.

I left labour recently, in part due to misogyny from new far left members.

They're heterosexual and want to get laid (I honestly think this is a huge part of the man-pleasing strand of liberal feminism among younger feminists). I will admit to knowing, albeit without a lot of critical thinking, that it was MUCH easier to be a blonde, pretty, straight feminist as a teenager. I knew that I would be listened to, that men wouldn't or couldn't use the 'it's because you're ugly/fat' excuse and that there was a slight sheen of pleasantness on top of the misogyny directed at me.

Now I look back and see that the lesbian feminists I knew woke up sooner for a reason. No one was placating them so they saw the foul underbelly before me. There was nothing they were 'winning' by being all libfem.

The shame of it is that we did at least listen to older feminist, read their work and think about it. Now, older feminists are the enemy and everything they say is wrong. The younger libfems haven't had children, seen the vast majority of their friends and family sexually assaulted and objectified for years, realised that the only way to stop being constantly treated like this is the blissful invisibility of middle age...

Also teenagers are just programmed to care what their peers think more than any other age group. The problem is that the media is geared to them so we are ALL supposed to care what they think.

I knew you'd all get it! It's been driving me crazy for a while but it feels like it's peak-season for stupid man-pleasing posts.

Here's what I don't understand though - if you're so focused on these other issues that have fuck-all to do with feminism, why even bother calling yourself a feminist? I mean, if this is driven by a backlash against feminism and women wanting to get on men's good side (either for sex or from fear) then why even bother saying you're a feminist? Why not say you're a male mental health activist? It's a perfectly honourable thing to do, but why pretend it's feminism?

But gender stereotyping does damage everyone of both sexes. Stupid patriarchical and ugly ideas of "what it is to be a man" result in male violence against women but also male suicide.

I don't think people like Owen Jones help matters. He is so influential and his form of feminism seems to be accepted.

Here's what I don't understand though - if you're so focused on these other issues that have fuck-all to do with feminism, why even bother calling yourself a feminist?

Because the word is somewhat fashionable, I guess. Feminism is "on the right side of history", which is where those pseudofeminists want to be.
Inventing their own word for what they want to do would require creativity, and also the new term wouldn't have a history they can be "proud of".

Of course muse.

But focussing on that aspect of feminism just puts men back at the centre. Again.

Why can't the gains for men just be a happy by product?

I get it now, I use to worry about pleasing the men round me and it brought me down. I became a doormat because it was easier, less stressful and I could point at my kids and say I was doing it for them. Feminism should never be about equalism, men have the advantage and want to keep it so them subvert what is good feminism and radical feminism is seen as man hating. Have we forgotten that we are talking about feminism, it is not and should never be about men in any way, shape or form. It is about us and only us, men don't need feminism.

But gender stereotyping does damage everyone of both sexes. Stupid patriarchical and ugly ideas of "what it is to be a man" result in male violence against women but also male suicide.

Yes but addressing sex stereotypes deals with this as a beneficial side effect, rather than being the sole purpose of addressing them? I just don't see why we should say "well feminism is good because it's beneficial to men" when that shouldn't be the focus of feminism at all.

Xpost with GetaHaircut

NY the Labour Party and particularly Momentum are not currently viewed as safe space by many women.

But we're told to STFU because of capitalism blah blah.

They get behind gender self identification and expect us not to mind because you know, student loans are more important than women's actual right to exist!

But gender stereotyping does damage everyone of both sexes. Stupid patriarchical and ugly ideas of "what it is to be a man" result in male violence against women but also male suicide. And there are many unintended consequences of many actions. That doesn't mean this is the point of them.

There was a great writer I read in university who wrote about the majority world and all the dreadful things that a lack of sustainable development was causing; famines, wars, mass sexual assaults, collapse of societies... Great book, largely ignored. Then she wrote a second about how these things affected the West; drug trade, mass migration etc. Sustainable development was FOR the first set of things. The fact that it would positively impact the second is great, but not the point. We are in danger of making feminism FOR men not women.

Nothing clever to add other than you're all right
It's depressing. 'Intersectional' 'liberal' feminists are a fucking poison to the movement.

Patriarchy clearly doesn't harm men enough for men to want to change it, so I don't see why we should prioritize men.

If men were so worried about the harm patriarchy does to them, they could start their own movement to end it.

They don't, so I don't see why we should prioritize their problems in feminism.

But shouldn't we want to, as a personal goal, try to be nice to everyone? Being horrible doesn't achieve much. Unless the person has actually done something terrible, then why would you want to be hurtful towards them.

I agree with oneflew if that's what Emma Watson said, in context, of course there are sadder things than boys being unable to cry. That doesn't means that boys being unable to cry isn't sad.

Wanting more funding for women's shelters and organisations doesn't mean you can't simultaneously fight for support for male victims of violence or assault.

Various inequalities in society exist, so surely it's helpful to try and understand how these inequalities intersect within individuals. If you don't try and fight against something you can't remove it, and if you don't understand it you can't fight it. Feminism should be intersectional, and that includes issues such as race, class, gender, sexuality etc... You can't just focus on 'women' and assume that all women will have the same experience or face the same challenges.

Also, it's incredibly short-sighted to suggest that all feminists who think this way are straight, I have many friends and colleagues of different sexualities who all believe in equality feminism. Sure that's anecdata but so is the suggestion that equality feminists are all straight women wanting to attract men.

I won't post all the experiences I and others have had with Momentum members. Liverpool Momentum seem particularly entitled.

The woman I know involved in momentum, have all admitted they have a history of abusive relationships with men, then I look at their new momentum member partner.

I've never understood why so many think the left is pro-women. It isn't. It's anti-capitalism, or so it says, but that's about it. It certainly couldn't give a toss about women as a class.

I had my eyes really opened to the hard left 30 years ago when I saw how a lot of left-leaning academics reacted to the homeless men who used to sleep in a well known London square and had nowhere to go. Never mind the poor sods had drug and alcohol problems and many had been treated badly by the capitalism the left purports to hate. When it was their doorsteps being inconvenienced they couldn't wait to petition the council to turf them out whether or not there were any facilities for them.

It was us useless centrists and horrible right wingers that fought to get them shelter and in the meantime organised a collection and brought them clothes and food.

So why on earth would the left give a toss about women as a class when they can display so little humanity to vulnerable individuals?

They are more about bringing down a system than caring for the humanity within it - just replacing one type of elite with another.

My understanding, I am newish to feminism and not well read or academic, is that intersectional feminism harms black women.

Adalind In your opinion, there are plenty of people who probably feel the opposite, but generally in polite debate you don't refer to someone who thinks differently to you as a 'poison'. Do you feel that creating a divide within feminism is helpful to your own aims?