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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Feminism as "let's be nice to everyone"

303 replies

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 10/08/2017 14:16

I've started getting the rage with celebrities and women I know who like to virtue signal about the importance of feminism, but then make the definition of feminism so broad that's it's useless.

Some things I've seen lately that have made my teeth clench include "feminism works for all genders", "feminism is another word for equalism", "we can only make feminism work if we get men on side, so let's be nice to them" "here's a list of things feminism works on for men" etc etc.

One thing that REALLY pissed me off was Emma-Feminist-Watson (I know...) saying that boys not being able to cry was the "saddest thing" she could think of and it just really brought home to me how feminism has turned from this fight to liberate woman, to this platitude designed to show that you're nice but "don't worry, not in a threatening way". Seriously, you can't think of a single thing SADDER than a bloke being emotionally stunted?

How did it happen that mainstream feminism started focusing on the emotional needs of men, rather than the increasing rates of DV and sexual violence? How did the conversation shift from "we need to fund these shelters for women" to "we need to make sure men have refuges [that never get used]"?

OP posts:
JasmineGreen · 14/08/2017 14:17

I am in two minds about the big issues vs little issues debate.

To use the toilet signs one as an example. I've just read this quote:

'The design was also condemned by Sussex Police hate crime ambassador Sergeant Peter Allan, who wrote on the Facebook thread: "This should not be happening in 2017."'

What has this got to do with police? Is it illegal? Is it a hate crime? Against whom? Because I know for sure that if I get beaten or raped for being a woman, that isn't considered a hate crime.

So while I do pick up on the little things a great deal, it concerns me that gender neutrality is being seen as being a bigger deal than actual violence against women.

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 14:20

This is the paragraph where I mention 'rape and sexual abuse'

As I said I realise that middle class women are raped and sexually harassed, but some of the boys I work with also have been and they have moved continent, and are living with the threat of more of the same. But it's not a competition. But women, as a class, suffer far more oppression. My point was I know this but after a difficult day I sometimes find it difficult to get bothered about toilets

I do NOT say MC women can not be raped. I do not say it does not matter. What I say is that some of my young people suffer this and more.
I also qualify this comment by saying its not a competition and women's a class suffer more.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2017 14:22

That Peter Allen is an idiot who posted a tweet on his police account hectoring Tesco for having a "feminine hygiene" shelf. And got sanctioned for it by the police force apparently. Good!

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 14:23

LassWiTheDelicateAir
Had she said something like "middle class women are making an issue over M&S painting a stick figure on a toilet door pink ffs" then fine (and I'd agree with that)

Thankyou for clarifying my point - that is what I meant. I tend to avoid any trans issues as I have history of not expressing myself well.

NoLoveofMine · 14/08/2017 14:24

Yet you say "your young people" suffer "this and more", thereby trying to make their suffering greater. It's you making this a competition. Oh, and as I said, some middle class women and girls are murdered for no other reason than being female. Being middle class doesn't stop that, nor does it stop their family and friends from being impacted forever.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2017 14:24

What I say is that some of my young people suffer this and more.

That's your assumption. You have no way of putting rape into a hierarchy on an individual level. Stop doing it.

NoLoveofMine · 14/08/2017 14:26

Agreed Ereshkigal.

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 14:27

I can't go into details to prove my point so I won't. My assumptions are based on life experiences working with a range of people from different social groups.

JasmineGreen · 14/08/2017 14:27

The point of competition on this thread are the needs of women to talk about their experiences of sexism and the need for a female worker to talk about her experiences of doing a specific job.

The actual abused young people aren't participating in this competition.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2017 14:28

It's like that awful Gaby Hinsliff guardian article where Gaby felt the need to post about the sexual assault victims' smartphones and relative freedom and opine about how it must feel from the perspective of foreign men from cultures where women don't have our rights, what lucky things we are, even when sexually assaulted!

NoLoveofMine · 14/08/2017 14:28

My assumptions are based on life experiences working with a range of people from different social groups.

Yet you dismiss life experiences of others. Abhorrent.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2017 14:30

My assumptions are based on life experiences working with a range of people from different social groups.

There is no objective hierarchy of rape.

NoLoveofMine · 14/08/2017 14:31

Very true Jasmine. Our experiences are being not only dismissed but also belittled. Very telling.

Ereshkigal that was indeed awful, not only dismissive of women suffering sexual assault but also insulting to women who suffer it daily in the cultures she was purporting to be defending.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2017 14:33

YY, Nolove. But she didn't appear to give a fuck about the women in those countries, because to criticise the culture would be a guardian no no.

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 14:34

NoLoveofMine

Wow abhorrent. I give an honest example of an emotion I felt at the end of a difficult day. I am happy to admit the emotional comment was not good. In fact the point I was making was that sometimes, in desperation, that is how I feel. I may have phrased my comment poorly. I'm quite happy to admit all that.

But I would hope most posters wouldn't consider me an abhorrent misogynist?

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 14:36

Ereshkigal

YY, Nolove. But she didn't appear to give a fuck about the women in those countries, because to criticise the culture would be a guardian no no

More than happy to criticise certain cultures. I do and have done on MN.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2017 14:39

Gaby Hinsliff. Not you in this case.

Ereshkigal · 14/08/2017 14:41

You went out of your way to rationalise your "emotional" comment.

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 14:41

JasmineGreen

The point of competition on this thread are the needs of women to talk about their experiences of sexism and the need for a female worker to talk about her experiences of doing a specific job

Indeed, my job takes me into the 'enemy camp' and offers a number of challenges to a feminist which I think might be of interest. I have to engage with groups of deeply troubled young people (mainly boys, some girls) who often hold some very challenging views, while being very vulnerable themselves.

My aim is to make them better citizens.

NoLoveofMine · 14/08/2017 14:42

Ereshkigal was talking about Gaby Hinscliff.

Moussemoose I find what you've been saying and your complete dismissal and ignoring of the experiences of others abhorrent.

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 14:46

Moussemoose I find what you've been saying and your complete dismissal and ignoring of the experiences of others abhorrent

Complete dismissal? "Women as a class suffer more".

Ignoring? I work with people from a range of cultures and social classes. I know people from a range of social classes I ignore no one.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/08/2017 14:53

Ereshkigal

Although now I'm not sure whether the 'toilets' refers to the trans-debate, or the toilet signs

I'm pretty sure she was referring to the trans debate as she has been dismissive of women's views about it on other threads

It was me who mentioned toilet signs - not Mousse. In the context of the lines of "who cares if the M&S stick figure on toilet sign is wearing a pink dress" No idea whether "she" in your comment is referring to me or Mousse but I don't recognise its applicability to me.

Perhaps bear in mind "she is the cat's mother" even posters on a forum have names.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/08/2017 14:55

JasmineGreen

'The design was also condemned by Sussex Police hate crime ambassador Sergeant Peter Allan, who wrote on the Facebook thread: "This should not be happening in 2017."'

What has this got to do with police? Is it illegal? Is it a hate crime? Against whom? Because I know for sure that if I get beaten or raped for being a woman, that isn't considered a hate crime.

Exactly.

BertrandRussell · 14/08/2017 15:06

"What I say is that some of my young people suffer this and more.
I also qualify this comment by saying its not a competition and women's a class suffer more."

You are rewriting this, you referred only to young men and boys rather than young people until challenged.

BertrandRussell · 14/08/2017 15:32

And you several times mentioned being "in the enemy camp"- as if you were expecting people to say that young men and boys do not suffer or deserve help and support.

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