Feminism as "let's be nice to everyone"

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

I've started getting the rage with celebrities and women I know who like to virtue signal about the importance of feminism, but then make the definition of feminism so broad that's it's useless.

Some things I've seen lately that have made my teeth clench include "feminism works for all genders", "feminism is another word for equalism", "we can only make feminism work if we get men on side, so let's be nice to them" "here's a list of things feminism works on for men" etc etc.

One thing that REALLY pissed me off was Emma-Feminist-Watson (I know...) saying that boys not being able to cry was the "saddest thing" she could think of and it just really brought home to me how feminism has turned from this fight to liberate woman, to this platitude designed to show that you're nice but "don't worry, not in a threatening way". Seriously, you can't think of a single thing SADDER than a bloke being emotionally stunted?

How did it happen that mainstream feminism started focusing on the emotional needs of men, rather than the increasing rates of DV and sexual violence? How did the conversation shift from "we need to fund these shelters for women" to "we need to make sure men have refuges [that never get used]"?

I encounter liberal feminists in my work with abused women. I have also met them through my mother's work in delivering health, assertiveness and literacy programmes to women, in my sister's trade unionism and my aunt's research and academic feminism.

What RL activism/support do you do that you don't know of any work done by liberal feminists Bert?

I have also met them working in the Sure Start programmes that I participated in when DS was young.

How does their liberal feminism inform their work?

I know lots of women who do lots of good things. They don!t normally announce their political/feminist allegiances before doing them.

I know lots of Tories who do good things. I don't dismiss the good things because I don't agree with their politics.

It depends on who one you are asking. Liberal feminists are not a hive mind.

What RL feminist activism and support to women do you do that you don't know any work done by liberal feminists Bert?

I know people who do good work who are all sorts of feminist and not feminists at all. Why are you focussing in liberal feminists as if they are a special case?

Your said "I don't know about the work done by liberal feminists". Are none of the "all sorts of feminists" you know who do good work liberal feminists?

What sort of RL support of women are you involved in?

I'm sorry. I misunderstood. You and mousse were talking about the work liberal feminists were doing in a way that made me think there was something specific they were doing which was informed by their liberal feminism and which I was dismissing. All the examples you have given could be done by any sort of feminist and non feminists as well. I presume that some of the women doing the work you describe are racial feminists as well?

Now that you are understanding better Bert, can you answer the question that you quoted at 16:31 and maybe say something about your own RL work supporting women. Thanks.

I'd argue that radical feminism is better on the theory but liberal feminism better on the practical.

The problem is that liberal feminism is constantly being equated on here as "fun" feminism so it's considered lesser.

Take trans issues, radical feminism seems to be happy to go toe to toe to confront trasactivists and shove theory in their faces. Liberal feminism sees merit in working with the system to influence policy and law. The reality is that liberal feminism and radical feminism balance out the flaws of the other.

But I'd agree that FWR is deep into a radical phase which invariably gives way to a more liberal approach and then cycles back.

I'm still puzzled by this "dismissing the work done by liberal feminists" Who is dismissing their work?

And no, Dione, I don't fancy giving you my CV.

PricklyBall

I wasn't referring to you. Your posts have been thoughtful and considered. There were a number of posts this afternoon saying "if you believe X you are not a feminist."

BertrandRussell

You have asked lots of questions of others. Both Dione and myself have given examples from our lives on this thread. It would be interesting to know how your (or anyone else's) life experiences inform their feminism.

Blistory Bang on target. The two sides inform and support each other, both are valuable. I have called myself both at various points in my life and also a socialist feminist. Like most people my views probably encompass a variety of factions.

"Liberal feminists are a fucking poison to the movement."
"Liberal feminism is passive... ...doing sod all." The poster who wrote this apologised this afternoon, however her post was expanded upon thus:
"How many of these women calling themselves feminist have done even the slightest thing to support actual women?"

I have only got to the end of pg2 (CBA doing all 8 pages) of the thread and these are the sort of posts dismissing the work done by liberal feminists that I am talking about. Maybe you didn't see them. But now that they have been pointed out to you can you answer the questions?

Actually, I think that once I realized that there wasn't supecific liberal feminist work being done in the world, my questions cacvn be C boiled down to "is there anything that a liberal feminist thinks is beyond the pale-anything that would cause you to say that person is not a feminist?

"How many of these women calling themselves feminist have done even the slightest thing to support actual women?"

I never said that.

I think there is a difference between helping individual women and women as a class. When I worked and volunteered I saw that I was helping women get back on their feet and hopefully made their life better, but I wasn't solving the underlying problem - I wasn't helping women as a class. I want to get the root of problems, to stop women needing help in the first place.

"Take trans issues, radical feminism seems to be happy to go toe to toe to confront trasactivists and shove theory in their faces. Liberal feminism sees merit in working with the system to influence policy and law. The reality is that liberal feminism and radical feminism balance out the flaws of the other."

But its not working is it? Self identification is practically a given, because the whole system is skewed in favour of men. I don't doubt women will find a way round it, eventually. We will have support groups and find fixes to compensate the women and girls who will be disadvantaged. And while we do that, we will miss the next thing that favours men at the expense of women.

Bert You asked that question on the previous page, before your realisation and I answered it. Any chance of you answering my questions?

Bigdeskbob, someone else quoted you and expanded on your post with what I quoted. How do you think you get to the root of the problems in order to stop women needing help in the first place?

Reading up about radical feminism might give you some idea?

What ideas has it given you?

Dione- no, I am not going to give you my CV!

I don't know about other liberal feminists but I don't identify as a liberal feminist because I don't know anything about radical feminism or because I'm only partway through a feminist journey. On the contrary, I've read a lot of feminist theory and liberal feminism fits better with my political beliefs, my personal beliefs, my sense of who I am and what I can achieve.

The assumption that radical feminism is the logical end point or a better type of feminism is one that I reject. I can do that whilst still wholly respecting the role that radical feminism plays in the broad church of feminism.

Liberal feminist views on prostitution and pornography are diametrically opposed to my views.

You keep saying that Bert, but I haven't asked for your CV. I have asked the question that you quoted at 16:31. You haven't answered.