I am Jazz. ***Trans content. Please do not open if you just want to post insults or whinge about another trans thread***

[CosmicPineapple]

I am Jazz is a reality show focusing on the journey of a teenage transgirl/woman whos parents supported transition from aged 5 and has been on TV since aged 6.
Now aged 16.

I don't watch the show as I strongly disagree with everything about it. However I briefly saw a clip of the next episode as the tv happened to be on the channel that airs I am Jazz I had been watching say yes to the dress and it was about dating.

Jazz goes to a sort of speed dating event where everyone is sat in the dark. Jazz wants a relationship, which is normal for a teenager however Jazz does not tell the boys/men that they are trans and in fact male.
As they are in darkness Jazz feels that if they get to know each other without the barrier of seeing each other/being trans it may lead to a relationship.

For me this is totally wrong.
Why should it be ok for Jazz or anyone to withold the truth about a very important aspect of who they are?
Plus I would imagine there to be some very upset and angry teenage boys when they find out they have been duped and lied to.

I remember a good few years ago where a man killed his partner after finding out on a TV show that they were trans. There have been a few similar murders over the years.
I am in no way condoning the murder or harm of another person I am just highlighting the danger that can come if you lie about the sex you are and it should not be encouraged as no relationship can survive on lies.

I just wondered what other peoples thoughts are on the subject of lying about your sex to the people you date?

To put it another way only 20% of male ADULTS choose bottom surgery. They transition entirely without puberty blockers. And even then they often only have hormones to soften their features, or give them boobs, but they don't have genital surgery

Can that be called transitioning? You haven't changed state, you certainly haven't changed sex.

For adult men who just transition hormonally, surely they would need something to block testosterone as well as taking oestrogen - is that Lupron or similar or is it another type of drug, does anybody know?

This is all so grim.

I've never seen this programme, nor am ever likely to, but one of the things I've seen stated a few times is that the doctor who has treated this poor child is the mother's cousin. Is that ethical?

I feel desperately sorry for this young person. Even if Jazz stopped taking hormones now and refused surgery, what kind of life could s/he have?

I'm also extremely angry about womanhood being reduced to pink sparkly frilly clothes, high heels and a front hole. Some TRAs have the effrontery to say they 'do' being a woman better than most real women, because they are so fixated on their appearance and are very cruel about women who aren't. How on earth did we get into a mess like this?

Yes bigcup, because transitioning is a state of mind not body now.

If a six foot tall man with a deep voice, broad shoulders, beard and fully functioning penis says he's a woman inside, then she is and should be respected as one.

... and that person's feelings are far more important than those of any biological women/girls who find the presence of an intact, very male person in a safe space intimidating. They are the ones who risk falling foul of the law. What a coincidence that it's a biological male who is more important than any number of biological females.

Just to be clear - I am not pro trans, or blockers, or any of it! I'm just curious as to how much the emotional/intellectual development side of things actually relies on hormones. For example, a good friend of mine in school went through puberty very late but wasn't emotionally or intellectually behind. I think we might be underestimating socialisation.

I appreciate that hormones would likely have had an effect in terms of Jazz coming to terms with a male body, and certain behaviours (as mentioned in the article Jiggly linked to), so very relevant to the issue of whether they would go on to full transition.

But the apparent immaturity in other ways is surely massively due to upbringing/social environment? Especially around the trans stuff - they've been brought up in the religion/belief system of trans, so why would they think anything else?

For adult men who just transition hormonally, surely they would need something to block testosterone as well as taking oestrogen - is that Lupron or similar or is it another type of drug, does anybody know?

Spironolactone is pretty usual I believe. And something to do with that is what results in the american references to pickles/pickle juice, as apparently it saps sodium or something, and american gherkins are salty rather than the sweet ones we get in the UK.

Apologies, went off and came back so x-posted

This Time article by Jazz is interesting, especially as I can't believe that she can actually remember all the stuff from when she was 2 or 3 (I know I can't, and neither can my DC). And the story about the wedding ring test is definitely something that has been told to her over and over until it became part of her narrative, isn't it.

(I wonder whether if the dolls she had seen when she was little had been anatomically correct as adults, with a full 70s bush, they would have been so attractive to her)

Spaghetti - what's the spiro / pickles thing? Intrigued!

Thanks, Spaghetti.

I'm aware that this is a 'pro' article, but it does quote a rather different statistic for moving from blockers to sex hormones, at least from the Tavistock.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/13/britain-needs-to-stop-freaking-out-about-transgender-kids/

I wonder where the author got his figures from? I'd quite like the actual stats without any spin.

I just looked at that article by Jazz. 'I figured out how to undo the snaps on my onesie to turn it into a dress shortly after I could walk'.
Where even to start with this? Most little kids do things like this. They undo poppers on things just because they can. And no baby or toddler, boy or girl, could care less if they are wearing a dress or trousers.
My Mum told me that when her brother was born in the 40's all baby boys (in her area) wore dresses until they were about 9 months old. Funny how all those boy babies didn't sense 'something was wrong' and try and join the material between the legs to make trousers. That's because babies and very young children don't care what they wear and have no understanding of any social message given by clothes.

Soo,on this thread the general consensus is ..she can never be a woman even with bottom surgery..and it wasn't jazzs choice,she enjoyed playing at being a girl and the parents let it go to far,then started making money out of her,with the tv program..and now she's stuck inbetween the two sexes...not able to become a man or a woman...so,I have a question..the doctors must of know ,when they stopped her puberty that ,that would mean her penis would t grow enough to make a vagina....well why didn't they say so at the time..why did they allow the puberty to be stopped if it meant not being able to make a vagina out of a small penis..that's just sick and wrong.and these doctors should be struck off..but they did a good job of selling the program

And ...i do feel sad for her ,I didn't ,but now I do..what sort of life will she have now...I wonder if the parents would turn the clock back if they could

Eezer I have the feeling the dad would, if he could.

I feel I shouldn't be watching the programme now..all things considered,why should a young child's life be my entertainment,even if I was only watching it to try to understand..I don't feel the parents have her best interests at heart

Did the doctors know what would happen though? Part of the problem with all this is that it's relatively new treatment - Jazz is one of the first to go through this process from so young - that's why she got the T.V show.
Part of the reason so many people are uncomfortable with the medical transing of children is precisely because the outcomes are unknown and there is no ethical way to test it. Jazz and other trans children of her generation are guinea pigs, but they have become so before they are old enough to legally consent to the medication and procedures themselves.

Isn't the doctor a relative of the family?

Jazz and other trans children of her generation are guinea pigs, but they have become so before they are old enough to legally consent to the medication and procedures themselves.

Well put, Icant

I worry very much what this poor child will face in their thirties and forties, and how limited their options will be if they are not happy with how they've been left. This is massively irresponsible of every adult concerned, in particular the medical professionals who enabled it, and is a massive failure of ethics and child protection. Social services should have had to take this to court for an independent and objective decision based on the child's best interests before treatment could be agreed.

Like the Charlie Gard case, this is a desperately sad and concerning situation where a vulnerable child has been exposed in the media, where social media and public opinion has had way too much involvement and where the needs of adults involved to have their feelings and values respected and validated by professionals caring for their child have taken the lions share of time, input and priority over the child themselves. Both cases upset me very much. Not least because when you look at serious case reviews from Victoria Climbie, Baby P and sadly others too, the same finding comes back again and again over the past couple of decades - professionals got too involved in supporting the adults involved and lost sight of the overriding rights of the child. They were afraid to challenge. They were afraid to say the unsayable. They were afraid of public opinion and criticism and of parents kicking off. And the child suffered as a result. As these case reviews keep finding: this is not changing. If anything, it's becoming more difficult.

GOSH have just given an example of how hard it is becoming to stand up to situations like this: seven months of highly expensive litigation, immense adverse publicity and criticism, a massive input of time and stress and evidencing over and over the reasons for disagreement in the child's best interests.

After a lifetime of hormones I don't think many trans children will reach their forties
The next 20 years are going to be interesting. I can see many children will sue parents or doctors

Poor Jazz. Another thing: for someone who wants to be a woman, he doesn't seem to know much about female anatomy. It's unlikely a man will see much of your "vagina" during sex unless he has a speculum - I think Jazz meant "vulva". A distinction my 10 year old understands because of our breezy child-appropriate chats about anatomy, sex and relationships, as well as the book I gave her to look at. Have those lunatic parents not even taught this poor kids the basics?

MissHavishamsleftdaffodil - that's a brilliant post.

I totally agree that the safeguarding implications of this case and numerous others involving children are being completely ignored - a good example is the court case mentioned upthread where the Judge barred Mermaids from having any further contact with the child he decided was being pressurised by his mother to become a girl.
The welfare of the child is paramount says the Children's Act. When children are anorexic we get them support and treatment - not give them a diet sheet. When children are radicalised online, we refer them for support and give them the tools to reject adults who are grooming them into dangerous behaviour. Yet with transgender issues, individuals and groups with zero 'qualifications' but considerable personal interest are given money, prestige and access to power and decision makers to influence social developments in a manner and with a speed that is unheard of. They are enabled to influence policy and to train and influence schools, social care and the legal systems and no doubt to deal directly with adolescents. And yes, Maria Miller and other politicians, the DfE, the NHS - I do hold you responsible for enabling this.
The interests of individual children and adolescents go totally unnoticed as adults validate their own lives and experiences through young people.
We spot grooming behaviour from paedophiles and protect children from adults who fabricate illness in their children - yet nobody is challenging similar behaviour in relation to transgender issues and children. We are moving to an unbelievable position where suddenly vulnerable teenagers are being allowed to self harm / be actively harmed before they are emotionally and intellectually capable of making such life changing decisions.

I totally agree that the safeguarding implications of this case and numerous others involving children are being completely ignored - a good example is the court case mentioned upthread where the Judge barred Mermaids from having any further contact with the child he decided was being pressurised by his mother to become a girl.
The welfare of the child is paramount says the Children's Act. When children are anorexic we get them support and treatment - not give them a diet sheet. When children are radicalised online, we refer them for support and give them the tools to reject adults who are grooming them into dangerous behaviour. Yet with transgender issues, individuals and groups with zero 'qualifications' but considerable personal interest are given money, prestige and access to power and decision makers to influence social developments in a manner and with a speed that is unheard of. They are enabled to influence policy and to train and influence schools, social care and the legal systems and no doubt to deal directly with adolescents. And yes, Maria Miller and other politicians, the DfE, the NHS - I do hold you responsible for enabling this.
The interests of individual children and adolescents go totally unnoticed as adults validate their own lives and experiences through young people.
We spot grooming behaviour from paedophiles and protect children from adults who fabricate illness in their children - yet nobody is challenging similar behaviour in relation to transgender issues and children. We are moving to an unbelievable position where suddenly vulnerable teenagers are being allowed to self harm / be actively harmed before they are emotionally and intellectually capable of making such life changing decisions.

Absolutely spot on!

There is going to be a 'wrong side of history' and it's not the people on this thread!!

I've said before, and I'll say it again: Jazz reminds me so much of Michael Jackson, and we all know how well his life turned out