Some questions about feminism from a Muslim.

[StatelessPrincess]

I'm a Muslim woman and I've been told I can't be a feminist and practise my religion (although I've never claimed to be one) but I've also seen and heard many times that a feminist is simply anyone who believes that men and women should have equal opportunities. So I'm a bit confused by feminism and have been trying to learn more about it. This has raised some questions-

Islam teaches that men should protect women. I've been told by feminists that this is backward and sexist. These same feminists are strongly against men and transwomen being able to use the same toilets as women and say that women are much more likely to be raped or assaulted than men. I also hear the phrase 'rape culture' mentioned a lot. So why is it wrong to say that women should be protected?

Many feminists feel that society judges women based on how sexually attractive to men they are and that this is wrong. They object to women feeling that they need to wear high heels or make up. Many Muslim women wear hijab to avoid this, to be judged on our words and actions alone and not our appearance. We are told by feminists that this is wrong, so how should a feminist dress?

I've been told that the decision I made freely to wear hijab is not in fact a free decision, that actually I am brainwashed. This implies that I do not have the intellect or backbone to choose my own clothes and neither do millions of other women. Does anyone agree with my feeling that this view is patronising and oppressive? Many Jewish, Christian, Sikh and Hindu women cover their hair, are they all brainwashed? And can a woman submit to God and be a feminist or are religion and feminism incompatible?

I'm not trying to start a fight or even a debate really, I'm genuinely just trying learn more about something that I hear so much about but struggle to understand.

[alpacasandwich]

Stateless so you can hopefully see how women sometimes need "special" treatment just to reduce a biological disadvantage? Maternity leave isn't something that fathers get.

Women are obviously physically different to men, but I refute the argument about "wiring".

I think the idea that women need men's protection from other men is treating women like property and infantalising them. In the worst case scenario you end up with families that won't let their daughters go outside unless accompanied by a suitable male.

And the onus is always on the women to follow the men's guidelines or she is essentially culpable for rape.

[StatelessPrincess]

I think the idea that women need men's protection from other men is treating women like property and infantalising them. In the worst case scenario you end up with families that won't let their daughters go outside unless accompanied by a suitable male. There is a fine line I think. I've never felt infantilised but neither my DF nor my DH are like that, I've always been pretty independant, apart from when I lived in Saudi, even then I actually didn't feel too restricted, I went out by myself all the time.

[Albadross]

The thing about the Bedouin women not being allowed to drink to protect them is a classic example - assuming it' to protect them from stupid drunken men, why is the solution not to stop the men drinking? No drunk men = no problem, unless patriarchy.

[VestalVirgin]

I think I've realised from this thread that the answer to my question- how should a feminist dress? - is that (I think!) for clothing to be an actual feminist choice it has to be chosen without any thought for men at all.

Only that is not possible.
We are surrounded by men's thoughts of what women should look like all the time.

There are many women who say they shave their legs and put makeup on their faces and wear high heels "for themselves". And I believe them, in a way - they saw lots and lots of images of women seen through the lens of male gaze, and now this is their own beauty ideal.

So, how should a feminist dress? In a practical, comfortable way. Any reasoning that contains "Because it looks good" is likely to be influenced by male gaze.

Sometimes, a feminist may feel a need to submit to patriarchal norms in order to avoid harrassment. In my case that means I don't bathe topless, because I don't want to be leered at by men.
But one should always stay aware of the lack of freedom in such a decision.
When one rationalizes submitting to the male gaze as "my choice", one becomes emotionally attached to it and may feel a need to defend it, even to the point of inventing allegedly rational reasons.
(Such as "shaving my body is more hygienic") which can even lead to trying to bully other women into making the same decision.

[NoLoveofMine]

Indeed Vestel.

When this is the kind of message we receive from a young age through media, advertising (image attached) it's easy to see how it becomes ingrained.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I think the idea that women need men's protection from other men is treating women like property and infantalising them. In the worst case scenario you end up with families that won't let their daughters go outside unless accompanied by a suitable male.

There is a fine line I think

I don't think there is a fine line at all.

[MercuryMadness]

I went to a supermarket near my home this morning and saw two girls - aged approx 12 and 8 - in full length abayas.

It is 28 degrees C here.

I won't deny I was appalled and sad.

[AdalindSchade]

mercury it is eid day today so they were probably dressed in their best to go to mosque. You don't know what they were wearing underneath - a loose cotton robe with just vest and pants under can be very cool indeed.

[VestalVirgin]

I don't think there is a fine line at all.

Yeah. It is quite clear-cut. Men are the problem, not the solution.
If girls need protection from men - which I won't deny is the case, and this protection is not always provided by laws and governments - tell them to go out in groups with other girls. Adding a man is adding a potential danger.

The "we need men to protect us (from other men, but we don't like to talk about that)" attitude is a bit like the US American attitude to guns. Just even stupider.

If you know how to safely use a gun, the chance you will kill yourself with it is zero. (Though in practice, many people are killed by toddlers with guns. Many more people, I am sure, than are saved by having a gun.) Someone else can use it to kill you, of course, but the gun itself is no danger.

A man, you never can "handle safely" enough to make sure he doesn't get violent against you. It is up to chance whether you get a decent one or a violent one, and the violent ones are very good at deceiving you.

Most people outside the US are able to see quite clearly that more guns don't make people safer.

With men, this seems to be harder to understand.

[alpacasandwich]

it is eid day today so they were probably dressed in their best to go to mosque.

And if you own a vagina, your "best" is a loose outfit that hides your body from the view of men.

That doesn't seem problematic to you? Even when the girls are children?

[rosy71]

So why is it wrong to say that women should be protected? If women need protecting from men, then it doesn't make sense for men to protect them. Therein lies the path to men controlling women by telling them where/when with whom they can go.

how should a feminist dress? Ideally in clothes that are comfortable & practical - suitable for whatever you're going to be doing whilst wearing them. Societal norms and cultural ideas can get in the way of this. Like pp say, no one makes choices in a vacuum.

And can a woman submit to God and be a feminist or are religion and feminism incompatible? I don't know. Perhaps it depends on what the religion & God are saying and how much you believe this. I do think the fact that, in all the 3 main religions, God is male, is a problem. I do think human rights should always take precedence. Religions should not be allowed to discriminate against groups, even if individuals believe otherwise.

[VestalVirgin]

And if you own a vagina, your "best" is a loose outfit that hides your body from the view of men.

To be fair, men from those cultures, traditionally, also wear loose outfits that hide most of their bodies from the sun.

The problem is mostly the attitude behind it. Women who "choose" to wear such clothes often see themselves as more virtuous than women who walk around in jeans and t-shirt.

If they just wore those outfits to prevent sunburn, it'd be perfectly reasonable. It's the fact that they never wear anything else, even in the British winter, that's the problem.

[AdalindSchade]

Their best is traditionally religious garb, yes. Take a look at the men, they wear long loose clothes too.
In very hot countries it is far more sensible to wear loose fitting clothes that cover the whole body, for coolness and protection from the sun. Wearing short, skimpy clothes that expose lots of skin aren't practical.
People wear traditional clothes at eid. It's hardly a shocker.

[alpacasandwich]

I've yet to see a man wearing long clothes in dark colours or them described as "modest".

What about the fact you can't fast if you're on your period? Or different entrances for men and women? No female imams?

All these "little" things make up the patriarchal picture.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I thought not fasting on your period was to do with being physically weaker at that time, not about being 'impure'.

Bedouin men cover up quite a lot.

[Gwenhwyfar]

"And if you own a vagina, your "best" is a loose outfit that hides your body from the view of men."

And in our culture "best" is one that shows your body, which is just as bad. There was a comment on Style and Beauty telling a woman not to wear a dress with a collar because it made her look 'Amish'.

[VestalVirgin]

What about the fact you can't fast if you're on your period?

You got that mixed up in there. Not fasting when you are on your period, or pregnant, or ill, makes sense. Fasting all day isn't particularly good for thin young women in any case.

It is the not being allowed in religious bulidings, etc, while you have your period that's the problem. Yes, that exists, too, and I won't claim that Islam doesn't have some very sexist rules.

Just don't think that we automatically have to pity girls who wear clothes that completely cover their body in summer.
(Actually, it is much more of a problem in winter, what with vitamin D levels and such)

[alpacasandwich]

And in our culture "best" is one that shows your body, which is just as bad

Firstly, I don't agree with your interpretation. Secondly, why is it "bad" for a woman to show her body?

[alpacasandwich]

It's not about physical weakness. Menstruating women aren't even allowed to pray, it is an issue of perceived cleanliness.

This is all information given to me by a muslim girl I worked with.

[alpacasandwich]

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/what-its-like-to-have-your-period-during-ramadan_us_576c2381e4b0d575ae42172e

[alpacasandwich]

www.myreligionislam.com/detail.asp?Aid=5899

[StatelessPrincess]

Hi everyone, just thought I'd check in since family are off to the mosque and I'm still not mobile enough to leave the house (DH wearing v nice charcoal coloured thobe alpaca ) I see that the threads moved on so I'll bow out now. Thanks again to everyone who answered my questions and shared their views, it's definitely cleared some things up for me and given me lots to think about. I feel like feminism is a topic I've been quite ignorant of and that's never a good thing. And I finished The Handmaid's Tale, it's absolutely brilliant! Going to start watching the series later with DH and the next book on my new reading list is The Red Tent. I don't think I'll be burning my headscarves anytime soon but I'm happy to be broadening my mind

[Gwenhwyfar]

Thanks for the correction Alpaca. The article you linked to did give this as a possible explanation though:

both fasting and menstruating can be physically challenging. The rule is partly in place, she said, to ensure that women’s bodies aren’t unduly taxed.

“I’m physically depleted when I menstruate,” Auston said. “I suffer from iron deficiency, especially while I’m menstruating, so not having to fast when I’m already physically depleted is something that I regard as a mercy.”

[BertrandRussell]

I think the bottom line question for muslim women is "What would happen if I decided that I wanted to go out in shorts and a crop top?"

If the answer is "Absolutely nothing" then all's fine and good. But ..........

[alpacasandwich]

The articles all come back to cleanliness as well and the fact you aren't even allowed to pray if you menstruate.

Yet men defecate daily and possibly ejaculate (e.g. wet dream) and are allowed to participate.

Policing women's bodily functions is pure sexism.