Some questions about feminism from a Muslim.

[StatelessPrincess]

I'm a Muslim woman and I've been told I can't be a feminist and practise my religion (although I've never claimed to be one) but I've also seen and heard many times that a feminist is simply anyone who believes that men and women should have equal opportunities. So I'm a bit confused by feminism and have been trying to learn more about it. This has raised some questions-

Islam teaches that men should protect women. I've been told by feminists that this is backward and sexist. These same feminists are strongly against men and transwomen being able to use the same toilets as women and say that women are much more likely to be raped or assaulted than men. I also hear the phrase 'rape culture' mentioned a lot. So why is it wrong to say that women should be protected?

Many feminists feel that society judges women based on how sexually attractive to men they are and that this is wrong. They object to women feeling that they need to wear high heels or make up. Many Muslim women wear hijab to avoid this, to be judged on our words and actions alone and not our appearance. We are told by feminists that this is wrong, so how should a feminist dress?

I've been told that the decision I made freely to wear hijab is not in fact a free decision, that actually I am brainwashed. This implies that I do not have the intellect or backbone to choose my own clothes and neither do millions of other women. Does anyone agree with my feeling that this view is patronising and oppressive? Many Jewish, Christian, Sikh and Hindu women cover their hair, are they all brainwashed? And can a woman submit to God and be a feminist or are religion and feminism incompatible?

I'm not trying to start a fight or even a debate really, I'm genuinely just trying learn more about something that I hear so much about but struggle to understand.

[DarthMaiden]

Being honest I find it difficult to understand an acceptance of the premise that the response to male predatory behaviour is for women to hide from it.

That might be vocally, emotionally or physically.

The flaw is not with a woman having the body that might arouse sexual interest, rather the man who believes it's acceptable to think that's an open opportunity to verbally/emotionally/sexually abuse someone because of their sex.

I don't want to be disrespectful of your faith, but the hijab and burka don't speak to me as woman's rights - even when you choose to wear it, which is not always a choice for many women-
rather it's a tool to make women "responsible" for the sexual control of men. Ergo - we rape/abuse it is your fault because we didn't choose to cover ourselves up.

[NameChanger22]

I would find it difficult to be a feminist alongside any religion, as they all seem patriarchal and controlling of women. Maybe most religions are stuck in the past, and if they want to recruit new members they need to be more progressive.

[NoLoveofMine]

I think some posts have been Islamophobic but am in the pub at the moment - will post at greater length in a few minutes when I'm home.

[CaptainWarbeck]

This has been a fascinating thread so far and I think people have really tried to understand each other.

I admit I have felt that wearing a hijab doesn't fit with being feminist before. But then like people are saying, when you look at western 'choices' like leg shaving, how free a choice is that really? I do choose to moderate my Western dress style (ie not go for really short skirts or low cut tops) so I don't get unwanted male attention - I wonder how different this really is to covering in principle.

I count myself a feminist while not beating myself up for not being a perfect one but striving to be a more authentic or 'better' one by thinking about the choices I make and beliefs I hold. So it wouldn't make sense to say that Muslim women couldn't be feminists if they are doing a similar thing.

[NoLoveofMine]

Quite Captain.

I shave my legs, wear make up, have long hair, wear dresses. I could say all these things are my free choice and I'd probably claim they were but they are clearly done in the frame of the male gaze. My brothers don't do any of these things...so how is it truly free? Why would women/girls choose to do all these things which make us appear in a certain way and boys not? I clearly see myself through the male gaze even if I don't think I do and even though I'm aware of it.

[IfNot]

I have noticed more young girls wearing the hijab than when I was at school. No young Muslim girl in my areal wore it in the 80s. Stateless do you think that the fact more are wearing it is a gesture of defiance in a way? Do, wanting to be identified instantly as Muslim, when Islam is becoming do contentious in the general perception. OR do you think it's a reaction to an increased conservatism in the faith? ( or something else?)

[IfNot]

So not do

[ChocChocPorridge]

My thoughts on the hijab are that if no muslim woman wore one voluntarily, it would be harder to ignore those countries that force women to wear them - harder for them to justify themselves.

Secondarily, in countries with many religions, we've already seen that when women in a cultural group are expected to cover, and do cover, that the women in other cultural groups (or their own group) who don't are seen as fair game - so in a way, whilst covering is an individual choice, it does have an impact on other women.

When it comes to marriage, I bet if women refused to marry men until there was no forced marriage then that would be one hell of a protest. The trouble is that marriage provides women with legal protections they don't get otherwise, so it would be an extremely risky protest to make.

[Datun]

CaptainWarbeck

Very good point. A Muslim woman might cover up to avoid the male gaze, a Western woman might do the opposite to attract it. Or, she might vary her clothing to avoid it.

Either way, it's all done with men in mind.

So I suppose the answer is no, it's not feminist, but yes it's a feminist issue.

And most women, feminist or otherwise, do it to some degree.

Very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it, OP.

[alpacasandwich]

Feminism is about equality.

Within islam, women have to cover their hair to avoid the male gaze but men don't. Therefore, that is sexist: you are obliged to take an action because of your sex.

Patriarchal religions are always highly conservative in terms of gender roles. It's always the women covering their bodies, being the object of lust and men the lusters.

There is no reconciling it with feminism.

[GuardianLions]

"Islam teaches that men should protect women"

I agree that women need to be protected from male oppression, violence and misogyny. But it is not 'men' that should be doing the 'protecting'. It should be the cultural norms, laws, customs, governance and criminal justice system that protect women and girls from male oppression, violence and misogyny.

Feminism means challenging all the cultural norms, customs, laws, governance and machinations of the criminal justice system (and anything else eg -eductation/media) that serve to reinforce the oppression of women by men, in order that all these things can, instead, effectively protect women.

If there are any aspects of Islam that serve to oppress women, then a Muslim Feminist will be critical of those aspects of Islam - that shouldn't make her less of a feminist or less of a Muslim. However, in my opinion, I am skeptical of any woman's 'choices' made within patriarchy are entirely 'free'. Being, as a woman, free to choose to conform to something dictated by patriarchy, whether that is shaving your legs or wearing a hijab is an illusion.

Additionally 'protect' is a dangerous word. Too often it gives the 'protector' an egoistic self-aggrandising fantasy of their own role which diminishes the status of the 'protected' in their mind - and can quicly become a sense of entitlement to control and dominate.

[GuardianLions]

Sorry - I didn't rtft at all! My phone made it look like there had only been a couple of replies apologies if my points are already made.

[Jijhebtseksmetezels]

I think "protection" is one of those lies that the patriarchy tells us that, on the surface, sounds like a compliment (women are precious) but in reality is a way of restricting us.

I remember watching an episode of Tribal Wives where the (Bedouin I think?) women weren't allowed to drink but the men were. When the western "wife" asked why the men said that it was to "protect" them.

Protect them from what though? Other drunken men?

Protection is often a euphemism for restriction.

[Albadross]

Hi Stateless, and thank you again for your contribution to my thread about Niqab and issues with communication - I think that actually ties in here for me because as a feminist (more radically leaning) I do believe that the issue of the male gaze should be for men to fix, not women, and that coverings as a requirement for any reason other than basic practicality for both sexes equally are coming at that problem from the wrong angle. That predisposes me to wonder why anyone would choose to cover when it could compromise both women's long-term chance of changing patriarchy and in doing so put barriers up for others who don't have a choice.

I shave my legs and wear makeup because it's easier, and we all want an easy life, but I hate that I should have to do that just so I don't have to fear constant judgement that men don't get. Yes it makes me feel some sense of empowerment when I go out looking what society deems as attractive but it's not necessarily a real power because it's dependent on something outside of myself. Even once you understand that it's still not a nice feeling to be told you're being influenced because it feels like we're not strong enough within ourselves to resist it. The word 'brainwashing' is really just a colloquialism for socialisation in this context, humans are so easily influenced and as much as we'd like to think our minds are our own it's just not realistic to believe that.

I find it odd when people polarise things so it becomes that if you believe men and women should be equal, that means you don't believe there are any differences between the sexes - we can be different without being lesser. People arguing against feminism are forever saying that (I'm not saying you are, but you asked pp about it).

[StatelessPrincess]

ISay and Jjijheb thanks for your recommendations, have been meaning to look at the The Handmaid's Tale for a while, I downloaded it this morning and I'm hooked already, haven't read anything this interesting or gripping for a while. One thing that stood out for me is when aunt lydia talks about freedom from and freedom to. Very thought provoking!

Ifnot I think you're right about the increased numbers of women who wear hijab and I think the reasons you asked about are all correct, there isn't just one. Islam seems to slowly switch through phases of liberalism and conservatism, like politics I suppose, right now, as you've noticed, mainstream Islam is quite conservative. I do think it's also to do with the fact that more women from Muslim backgrounds have more Islamic knowledge than they generally used to, culture is having less and less to do with people's religious practises, which I personally see as a good thing. It's culture which has given us the problems many non Muslims associate with Islam, like forced marriage, FGM etc, Islam doesn't actually condone these kinds of practises.

Datun I think I've realised from this thread that the answer to my question- how should a feminist dress? - is that (I think!) for clothing to be an actual feminist choice it has to be chosen without any thought for men at all.

Thanks everyone else for your comments, some really great points being made. I do think it's interesting that, for the most part, everyone is roughly in agreement I think the conclusion I'm coming to is that if I believe that men and women are different and can be treated differently because of that then I'm no feminist! I do stand my statement that one is not better than the other though.

[Albadross]

Just to pick up on on this:

I believe that men and women are different and can be treated differently because of that then I'm no feminist!

Treated people equally doesn't always mean treating them the same, it's more about the outcomes. So you might treat men and women differently to mitigate some of the inequalities women face because of biology in order to create equality.

[NoLoveofMine]

I apologise for my comment about Islamophobia. It was silly to accuse anyone of that and not my place anyway. Many apologies and there have been so many interesting posts as always here.

[StatelessPrincess]

jijheb I was brought up always hearing that a Muslim women should be like a pearl so I can agree with what you say. That's interesting about the Bedouin men and women and I think ties in with what I said about culture. My granny is a Bedouin, she's covered in tattoos and always covered her face when she was younger, but not her hair, which was the practise of her tribe.

So you might treat men and women differently to mitigate some of the inequalities women face because of biology in order to create equality I'd say this is how I see it Albadross I definitely don't think one should have better treatment than the other.

[alpacasandwich]

So you might treat men and women differently to mitigate some of the inequalities women face because of biology in order to create equality I'd say this is how I see it Albadross I definitely don't think one should have better treatment than the other.

So you don't think women should have maternity leave?

[Albadross]

I need to look up how you cover your face but not your hair? Like tying something around it? I'm picturing a balaclava with a hole around the scalp for some reason !

[GuardianLions]

I picture the classic veil with the eyes showing... which I interestingly associate with the exoticised concubines of sultans...

[alpacasandwich]

www.google.co.uk/search?q=bedouin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis_ILWqtbUAhUDuRoKHTd7CaQQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=638#tbm=isch&q=bedouin+face+mask

They seem to cover hair too.

[ISaySteadyOn]

It depends. I think that you can be a feminist and believe that men and women are different. The problem, as I see it, is that women are not treated fairly and their differing physiological needs are used as reasons for this.

That said, I don't believe there is any such thing as ladybrain.

[StatelessPrincess]

It was a short veil covered with silver coins and had a band that went around the head to keep it on. Very sort hollywood harem girl looking, it was thick and weighed a ton too, I remember her sticking it on me when I was little. She possibly had a plainer one for every day, I'm not sure, there aren't any photos of her when she was young.

alpacasandwich yes I think they should, of course they should, I think men should be able to take longer for paternity leave too actually.

[StatelessPrincess]

alpaca There is lots of different practises amongst different tribes and this is also going back a long time now, maybe 50-60 years ago. Her tribe settled and pretty much assimilated I think. Nobody actually knows how old my granny is!