Some questions about feminism from a Muslim.

[StatelessPrincess]

I'm a Muslim woman and I've been told I can't be a feminist and practise my religion (although I've never claimed to be one) but I've also seen and heard many times that a feminist is simply anyone who believes that men and women should have equal opportunities. So I'm a bit confused by feminism and have been trying to learn more about it. This has raised some questions-

Islam teaches that men should protect women. I've been told by feminists that this is backward and sexist. These same feminists are strongly against men and transwomen being able to use the same toilets as women and say that women are much more likely to be raped or assaulted than men. I also hear the phrase 'rape culture' mentioned a lot. So why is it wrong to say that women should be protected?

Many feminists feel that society judges women based on how sexually attractive to men they are and that this is wrong. They object to women feeling that they need to wear high heels or make up. Many Muslim women wear hijab to avoid this, to be judged on our words and actions alone and not our appearance. We are told by feminists that this is wrong, so how should a feminist dress?

I've been told that the decision I made freely to wear hijab is not in fact a free decision, that actually I am brainwashed. This implies that I do not have the intellect or backbone to choose my own clothes and neither do millions of other women. Does anyone agree with my feeling that this view is patronising and oppressive? Many Jewish, Christian, Sikh and Hindu women cover their hair, are they all brainwashed? And can a woman submit to God and be a feminist or are religion and feminism incompatible?

I'm not trying to start a fight or even a debate really, I'm genuinely just trying learn more about something that I hear so much about but struggle to understand.

[IndominusRex]

No they'd find a way to excuse it/blame her for sure Stateless. Thank you for starting this thread, it's a really interesting discussion!

[IndominusRex]

Six - I agree. I'm an atheist but I can see why people choose to commit to a faith and have belief in a god, but I think the scriptures from all religions were written as a way to create and reinforce power structures and hierarchies, with women always being at the bottom.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

If someone chooses to wear a headscarf as their free choice, does it matter that they also know that their family would be disappointed or embarrassed if they didn'? That they would be seen as lesser by some members of their wider community, or worse? Or that they would feel uncomfortable about breaking away from the norm, perhaps not up for having to justify and discuss their decision all the time?

I have an issue with the idea of "modest" dress anyway. It generally only applies to women - the dictionary definition of this meaning tends to specifically refer to it applying to women only. I don't think that girls and women should be told to be modest. I don't see what is worthy or valuable about being modest.

[IrritatedUser1960]

Well I can't answer all your questions but you have a right to wear a hijab if that is your choice.
As for men should protect women, I'm afraid I believe that no man of any faith is capable of taking the dustbin out efficiently never mind protecting women. I've always managed to protect myself quite well thank you.
There is far too much abuse against women from men so I think it's very important to be self reliant and teach your daughters how to be self reliant. Then you will be safe.

[StatelessPrincess]

It explicitly states that it's permissible to lightly beat your wife, that a man may marry up to 4 women as long as he can treat them all equally and that women are entitled to half the inheritance if men and so on. Combination of mistranslation and misinterpretations there but I do not want to get into a debate about what the Quran says, I'm tired of it to be honest! I will say that I believe that when practised properly Islam gives us the freedom, rights and opportunities that we deserve and although men and women are not viewed as the same, one is not better than the other and we are judged according to our good deeds, not our genitals. I agree with you with what you say about clothes and protection from men Six6
Thanks Indominus it's been interesting for me too [smile[]

[AvoidingCallenetics]

Anything that regards women's views as less valuable than men's or blames them for the violent actions of men or denies them autonomy over their own bodies is not feminist.
I get very uncomfortable seeing women being expected to cover up when men do not. Or being denied abortions or birth control.

[tabulahrasa]

"But I've experienced life with and without wearing hijab and there is a huge difference in the way I have been treated, and as prefer the treatment I get when I wear it, its one of my main reasons for doing so."

My issue with that's is that that is basically accepting that it's ok that you're treated better with it...

[ISaySteadyOn]

I personally believe that all monotheism is inherently misogynistic at its core otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to interpret it in ways that require the subjugation and punishment of women. I find it interesting that one of the markers of religious extremism is harsher and harsher rules for women especially around their sexuality and reproductive capacity. This is incompatible with liberation from oppression as far as I am concerned. However, I also think the world is as it is so I will not tell anyone that they can't be a feminist if they're religious because that would be stupid and counterproductive.

As to hijab, I actually view it more in the vein of whether or not one chooses to shave one's body hair. There is nothing inherently wrong in any of those things but the social pressures involved should be looked at.

[Tollygunge]

I'm a Muslim woman and I've been told I can't be a feminist and practise my religion


One word- Khadija

[Datun]

Today 17:57 StatelessPrincess

49281730209a We don't have to, and it's only one of many reasons why a woman might choose to wear it. But I've experienced life with and without wearing hijab and there is a huge difference in the way I have been treated, and as prefer the treatment I get when I wear it, its one of my main reasons for doing so.

To me, this is the problem with the conflict arising from being a feminist trying to adhere to dress codes for religious purposes (in this case).

The problem is the way men treat you. Your cure is to wear certain clothing. The feminist cure would be to stop them treating you that way irrespective of what you wear.

[hazeydays14]

I think some people struggle to think you can be a religious feminist because so many religious texts refer to women as inferior to men. Women are encouraged to serve/obey their husbands.

Another thing which bothers me is that in some religions you cannot pray or enter the place of worship if you are menstruating because you are seen as impure.

On the other hand I do think it's important for women to be able to make decisions for themselves. You should have a choice in whether you choose to cover your hair. I was so surprised when I saw my friend who wore a hijab every day without hers. She looked like a completely different person as silly as that sounds.

I'm definitely not an expert on any of these matters so it's interesting to read other's opinions.

[CharlieSierra]

I agree with many of the previous responses. Assassinated has explained the 'free choice' issue well. People aren't saying you're stupid and brainwashed, but your choice is made within the context of your culture and community. I shave my legs and underarms in summer; I could say it's my free choice and preference but I know that my preference is influenced by the societal expectations of western culture and I accept that in going along with it I'm perpetuating and normalising it. You named the problem yourself in admitting that men treat you better when wearing hijab. Why do you think that might be? There is no acceptable reason.

[AdalindSchade]

Islam upholds and validates the idea that women and men should have separate spheres and that women need protection from men/the world/themselves.

To enshrine the idea of women needing a male protector in social norms is to accept the belief that male violence against women is inevitable.

[AdalindSchade]

although men and women are not viewed as the same, one is not better than the other

The problem with this is that it presupposes that women are innately predisposed to home making, child rearing and servitude, and that men are predisposed to earn money and have careers.
Realistically, lots of men are rubbish at negotiating the world of work, selfish with their money, lazy etc. Also lots of men could be nurturing and wonderful at raising children, but under Islamic views of family they aren't allowed.
Likewise women may have lots to contribute to the world through careers and may not be suited to home making at all. But under Islamic family norms they don't get to reach their full potential.

[MercuryMadness]

Google the male gaze, OP. Then come back and explain why if people are to judged on word and deed, not appearance, why men do not wear the hijab, other than that it is a value system with the male gaze - highly sexist model - embedded.

If men as a class stopped raping women as a class then men as a class would not have to protect women as a class. The protection racket is precisely that: a racket.

[StatelessPrincess]

Thanks everyone, I'm still here although a bit distracted with DD, orry I cant respond to everyone, but theres so many good points here it's really interesting hearing all your views. Charlie and Datun* When I didn't wear hijab I found that men would try to flirt me all the time and would constantly stare at my boobs when I was speaking to them. I think this kind of behaviour comes naturally to a lot of men and they will only stop it if they choose to or if they don't find the woman sexually attractive anymore. And I don't many of them would, change, they wouldn't see a reason too. I think they treat me better now because my clothes force them to. I will say though that although its one of the reasons I wear hijab its not even one of the main ones, I would never do it solely for this reason.
Tolly You are absolutely right, and she wasnt the only one.

[StatelessPrincess]

random bolding sorry!

[AdalindSchade]

I think this kind of behaviour comes naturally to a lot of men and they will only stop it if they choose to or if they don't find the woman sexually attractive anymore

That's where Islam diverges from feminism.
I disagree that men can't help sexualising women. Society teaches men that women are sexual objects available for their entitled gratification which is gross and wrong but not inevitable. Once again, your worldview assumes that male violence towards women is inevitable.

[StatelessPrincess]

Adalind I get where you're coming from but I dont agree. I believe that men and women are wired differently (for want of a better expression) but that it doesn't justify violence and in Islam men are told to lower their gaze and that sex outside of marriage is sinful. Women are not to be viewed as sex objects. That doesn't mean though that I'm saying Islam is feminist, I'm still learning what that means

[Moussemoose]

So on the hottest day of the year I am interviewing a girl of 16 in a hijab, long coat and gloves this is her choice? Her father, who is accompanying her is is an open necked loose shirt.

Hmmm religion or culture?

[SomeDyke]

I was thinking about public appearance and people being treated equally. So in the UK I have heard kids being treated differently based on whether they have rich parents who can afford loads of expensive fashionable clothes as a reason for school uniform. All the same (uniform!) hence hopefully all treated equally. If, as I suspect, people treat people differently based on their age and physical attractiveness, then you could argue that uniform clothing and concealing level of attractiveness (no make-up, uniform hairstyles, or veils) would lead to more equal treatment (and communist china and mao suits). The argument then is why women are so often the ones required to cover their hair or faces whereas men are not? So it's not covered or uncovered, it's why women do wear the hijab, yet men don't. For example, I don't have such an issue with sikhism where i know some women wear head coverings as well as men. So the question really isn't comparing "western"/atheist/christian women with other women, but why women within a particular culture do things differently compared to men in the same culture (and usually in a way that gives them less freedom of choice or movement). Which then encompasses make-up and shaving, high heels and various restrictive or revealing clothing, plastic surgery, historical face covering in ancient greece (only prostitutes went out uncovered), to chinese foot-binding, along with various religions who treat women and men very differently. It's all part of the same issue, why men generally are fit to be seen and act in public, whilst "their" women are not................

If (insert clothing or practice of choice here) is so great, why aren't men demanding to do/wear it as well?

[Gwenhwyfar]

I don't agree that dressing modestly doesn't apply to men. There's a lot of controversy in Belgium and France over the rule they generally have in swimming pools that men should wear speedo-style swimming costumes rather than shorts, which causes problems for Muslim men. I accept that this isn't the same as covering your hair, except for Bedouins maybe.

[AdalindSchade]

Princess I'm not hostile to Islam at all, I have Muslim relatives on one side. But there really is no evidence at all that men and women are wired differently. It's socialisation and culture that teaches people so.

[CharlieSierra]

Adalind I get where you're coming from but I dont agree. I believe that men and women are wired differently (for want of a better expression) but that it doesn't justify violence and in Islam men are told to lower their gaze and that sex outside of marriage is sinful. Women are not to be viewed as sex objects

So if women are not to be viewed as sex objects how come you have to cover up and change your behaviour to stop them? In saying they can't help it you're excusing them and accepting responsibility for their sexism.

[StatelessPrincess]

Mousse it might not be her choice but please dont assume it isnt. I've seen plenty of women give my DH dirty looks when it's hot and he is wearing shorts and I'm covered from head to toe, I hate it to be honest, it's insulting to me. It's O.K not to understand it or not want it for yourself but I hate the common assumption that my clothing is not my choice and that he forces me to dress like this.