Some questions about feminism from a Muslim.

[StatelessPrincess]

I'm a Muslim woman and I've been told I can't be a feminist and practise my religion (although I've never claimed to be one) but I've also seen and heard many times that a feminist is simply anyone who believes that men and women should have equal opportunities. So I'm a bit confused by feminism and have been trying to learn more about it. This has raised some questions-

Islam teaches that men should protect women. I've been told by feminists that this is backward and sexist. These same feminists are strongly against men and transwomen being able to use the same toilets as women and say that women are much more likely to be raped or assaulted than men. I also hear the phrase 'rape culture' mentioned a lot. So why is it wrong to say that women should be protected?

Many feminists feel that society judges women based on how sexually attractive to men they are and that this is wrong. They object to women feeling that they need to wear high heels or make up. Many Muslim women wear hijab to avoid this, to be judged on our words and actions alone and not our appearance. We are told by feminists that this is wrong, so how should a feminist dress?

I've been told that the decision I made freely to wear hijab is not in fact a free decision, that actually I am brainwashed. This implies that I do not have the intellect or backbone to choose my own clothes and neither do millions of other women. Does anyone agree with my feeling that this view is patronising and oppressive? Many Jewish, Christian, Sikh and Hindu women cover their hair, are they all brainwashed? And can a woman submit to God and be a feminist or are religion and feminism incompatible?

I'm not trying to start a fight or even a debate really, I'm genuinely just trying learn more about something that I hear so much about but struggle to understand.

[StatelessPrincess]

Charlie I think men are responsible for their own behaviour and fwiw the men I was talking about who stared at my chest etc weren't Muslim. A Muslim man is not supposed to behave like that with any woman, regardless of her dress, though of course many of them do anyway. He should ignore his desires and lower his gaze, this is what Islam teaches.

[MercuryMadness]

It is your choice.

Fine. So why are other women not making the same "choice"?

The choice to cover up only come after serious religious or cultural training, be it Islamic or Amish or whatever. Women who have not been subject to these cultures do not "choose" to wear hijab. Why?

[Datun]

OP, I totally understand the reasons why you cover up.

What I disagree with, is the cause of that. It's not your behaviour.

You have said that men will view women as sex objects (sorry I can't quite remember the exact words) and therefore, to avoid that, women cover-up.

The feminist viewpoint point is that men might view women as sex objects, but they must have the self-discipline to keep that to themselves. Completely. They need to change their behaviour since it starts and ends with them. Not make women change their behaviour in order to accommodate them.

It's akin to saying they can't help themselves. You might as well say they can fling any woman on the ground and have sex with her, because their sex drive is so overpowering that they can't help it.

But guess what, they don't do that. Largely. They manage to control themselves when it's necessary.

[Six6]

Stateless - I was raised a Catholic and have struggled with that in terms of feminism for most of my life.

Like you, I do believe that men and women are intrinsically different in some ways (by no means all). Some of it is biological, I think, otherwise how and why did it become manifest in all cultures. Equality does not have to mean we are the same. I embrace how being female gives me different strengths and perspectives to DH, for instance. It is an important part of who I am.

Forgive me if you believe my interpretation of the Koran is inaccurate. I can only take the words on the page on face value and as I understood it, the Koran is the direct word of Allah?

I think you can see men and women as intrinsically different and this is compatible with feminism yes. However, religion goes a lot further than this. It goes well beyond than the portrayal of men as predisposed protectors of women, as you mention in your OP. The patriarchal ownership and control of women are so implicit at the very core of all religions that it's impossible to sidestep this issue with any interpretation you apply to it.

[OlennasWimple]

Interesting questions, OP

Am mulling a few thoughts

[Six6]

My neighbour tells me that while a man is in the eyes of god, a woman is in the eyes of her husband and this is why she chooses to wear hijab. I don't know if you would agree with that interpretation?

[Datun]

OP, I do hope I haven't offended you.

The problem for me, personally, is that I totally understand. We all work within the confines of a patriarchal society. We all make concessions. We all make compromises.

We have to.

I would just like a world where the decisions we make are not based on what men think are best. Because it's not a level playing field.

[StatelessPrincess]

Six6 Yes we do believe that Quran is the word of God but unfortunately classical Arabic can be pretty easily mistranslated and interpreted, like the verse about men beating their wives for example, it doesn't actually say that. I've never heard the thing your neighbour said before and it makes no sense to me, sounds like cultural nonsense if I'm honest.
Datun My main reasons for covering are mostly to do with my identity as a Muslim, what men think of me only plays a very small part of it. Men not bothering me as much is more of a bonus than a reason if that makes sense. And no you haven't offended me I have no problem at all with people disagreeing with me I just don't want to be told I'm brainwashed, which I don't think anyone has said yet! Like I said, I just posted to try and learn some things and get some clarification.
Mercury I choose to cover because of my religion, if I wasn't Muslim I'm sure I wouldn't, because I wouldn't know of a reason to, I won't deny that. I've come across a couple of women on youtube who chose to wear what they called hijab despite not being Muslim. I'm not entirely sure what I think about it to be honest!

[Welldoneme]

It's commonly held view that Muslim men and women view western women who don't wear the hijab as sluts.
How dare they impose their brainwashed religious nonsense onto our western society?

I , for one, will never understand this opinion and I never understand if they despise the west so much, why they insist on living here?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

What does the "man beating his wife" section actually say?

[madmomma]

Op your prophet actually massively furthered women's rights during his lifetime didn't he?

[Six6]

Stateless - if it is a mistranslation, why has it been allowed to persist over all these years and in billions of copies of the Koran in so many languages?
I really struggle to understand this.

[StatelessPrincess]

Welldone I don't think that's a commonly held view at all, nobody that I know thinks that (that I'm aware of) and I definitely don't think that. And we don't wear hijab at home, most of us own western clothes too. I want to be able to wear what I choose so I want that for others too, whether it's niqab or a bikini or anything in between.

[StatelessPrincess]

Six6 I think the unfortunate answer is that there are lots of men who want it to say that.

Assassinated The correct interpretation is to separate, not beat.

Mad We believe he did, yes.

[iismum]

I would support any woman's right to wear the hijab or anything else - suppressing a woman's right to choose is not a feminist act. But at the same time, I believe that a social trend (usually coming from a religious society) that requires women to cover their hair and dress in a modest way when men are not is a deeply unfeminist society and that this happens because men want to control women's sexuality - they don't their 'own' women (wives, daughters, sisters) to be seen as sexual objects by other men. It is about a sense of entitlement to women's sexuality where it is seen as belonging to men and not to the woman herself. Women do not choose to cover their hair any more than men do in societies where this is not socially mandated.

So I would say that I support your right to choose and would hate to see that restricted, but I also believe that in making the choice you are, you are supporting an unfeminist social convention. You may decide that following the social convention or obeying your scripture or whatever is more important to you and that is completely legitimate, but it still remains an un feminist choice. Not that I believe that means you can't be a feminist - I make unfeminist choices as well (shaving my legs, etc) because of the pressure I feel to conform and still consider myself a feminist.

[Jijhebtseksmetezels]

I have no problem at all with people disagreeing with me I just don't want to be told I'm brainwashed

But we are ALL brainwashed! We are all groomed into the prevalent social norms.

We can only choose between the things that are actually on offer to us.

There is no real free choice.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

I don't understand in this context what separate means? Is it that a man can separate from his wife if she does something he doesn't like?

[Six6]

Again forgive me as it's been a while since I read the Koran and I don't have one to hand. Does it not say that men should deny their wives affection/ intercourse as a first measure? Is this what the "separation" is? They should only beat them lightly in a way that does not leave a mark if this fails?
How was anyone allowed to distort the word if Allah into this?

[AdalindSchade]

It's commonly held view that Muslim men and women view western women who don't wear the hijab as sluts

That's not my experience and I have met lots of Muslim men. Having been married to one for years I spent a lot of time with him and his friends and was rarely treated with anything other than total respect. I would have long and involved conversations with Muslim men about all sorts and they certainly didn't disdain me or consider me a slut. Nor did my husband!
No doubt there are schools of thought that women who dress less than modestly are immoral but it's not a widespread belief as you seem to think.

[iismum]

But we are ALL brainwashed! We are all groomed into the prevalent social norms.

We are, but we can be aware of it and struggle against and try to make choices with it in mind, which is how change comes about. Or we can submit to it or never really think about it and this is how conventions persist.

[Six6]

The other "law" that a man can divorce his wife by saying "I divorce you" three times -is that also a mistranslation?
I hope you don't mind these questions, but I have always wondered about this.

[Six6]

Adalind - I completely agree. My husband is British Iranian (though nominally Christian) and I have never been disrespected by a Muslim man any more than other men in the general population, whether I'm wearing make-up, heels or whatever.
I think largely, as with many things, you are treated the way you expect to be treated.

[MercuryMadness]

I think largely, as with many things, you are treated the way you expect to be treated

Gosh if I l'y we could get women to have higher expectations, men would treat them better. Silly women expecting to be treated like shit.

[StatelessPrincess]

I didn't start this thread to debate what the Quran says, I'm sorry, I've done it on plenty of other threads. Me and other Muslim women get quite tired of being asked the same questions about it all the time. Here is a link which explains the linguistics behind the beating misinterpretation- free-minds.org/are-women-be-beaten

iismum I've recently learned that some women do see wearing hijab as a feminist choice which I found interesting. I think it depends on the individuals reasons for wearing it, I cant say my reasons for wearing it are though, although I don't think they are particularly unfeminist either. I think perhaps it's like burlesque, some women see that as liberating and feminist, others really dont.

[iismum]

The patriarchal ownership and control of women are so implicit at the very core of all religions that it's impossible to sidestep this issue with any interpretation you apply to it.

^^
This.