Some questions about feminism from a Muslim.

[StatelessPrincess]

I'm a Muslim woman and I've been told I can't be a feminist and practise my religion (although I've never claimed to be one) but I've also seen and heard many times that a feminist is simply anyone who believes that men and women should have equal opportunities. So I'm a bit confused by feminism and have been trying to learn more about it. This has raised some questions-

Islam teaches that men should protect women. I've been told by feminists that this is backward and sexist. These same feminists are strongly against men and transwomen being able to use the same toilets as women and say that women are much more likely to be raped or assaulted than men. I also hear the phrase 'rape culture' mentioned a lot. So why is it wrong to say that women should be protected?

Many feminists feel that society judges women based on how sexually attractive to men they are and that this is wrong. They object to women feeling that they need to wear high heels or make up. Many Muslim women wear hijab to avoid this, to be judged on our words and actions alone and not our appearance. We are told by feminists that this is wrong, so how should a feminist dress?

I've been told that the decision I made freely to wear hijab is not in fact a free decision, that actually I am brainwashed. This implies that I do not have the intellect or backbone to choose my own clothes and neither do millions of other women. Does anyone agree with my feeling that this view is patronising and oppressive? Many Jewish, Christian, Sikh and Hindu women cover their hair, are they all brainwashed? And can a woman submit to God and be a feminist or are religion and feminism incompatible?

I'm not trying to start a fight or even a debate really, I'm genuinely just trying learn more about something that I hear so much about but struggle to understand.

[ineedafriend]

Men being protectors of women is just tip of the iceberg of Islam being anti feminist.

In Islam, women automatically loose custody of children above 7 (boys) and 9 (girls) to her husband. If the said husband dies the children are given to their paternal grandfather and uncles. Don't you think it's unjust? This creates a situation where women don't get divorce because they know they'd loose their kids.

Women are not allowed to issue divorce. She can ask for divorce (khula) but if she is granted that she looses the mehr. Whereas men have right to issue verbal divorce.

Women are entitled to half as much inheritance as their brothers.

In evidence two women's evidence is equal to one man's.

There are provisions for men being entitled to the sexual use of female slaves and those captured in war.

And on your point about men being protectors, you have misunderstood feminism. Feminism isn't asking men to protect women on street and at home (which is what Islam does) feminism asks men to stop raping and attacking women, and feminism doesn't victim blame, feminism sorts the problem by targeting those that are responsible which are men instead of policing or subjugating women.

[ineedafriend]

On the verse of the Quran that permits wife beating... I have read the original and as far as I am concerned it says beat, and most people agree that it says beat.

But let's imagine it doesn't say beat. Why is a holy book giving detailed instructions on what a man should do when he is angered by his wife but says nothing about what women should do when men anger them?

Also muslim men being allowed to have four wives is pretty anti feminist.

[CheeseBubbles]

nothing wrong with choosing to wear the hijab. Many Muslim women choose to do so. Many women women choose not to. Both choices should be respected so anyone who insults your agency by saying you haven't made a free choice is being rather insulting in my opinion.

I don't think any women makes a completely free choice regarding clothing. And if they did why is it only women in certain cultures that wear certain dress?

High heels and makeup are uniform for some western women. They have no choice. Hijab for some Muslim women. Neither can make the choice man without cultural baggage.

[CheeseBubbles]

I don't know any feminist religions but I know religious feminists. Feminists aren't perfect and they make unfeminist choices, they're still feminists.

[Six6]

"Silly women expecting to be treated like shit"

Mercury that's not what I meant at all, but I think you know that. I meant that it's hard for certain groups of men to make you feel shamed as a slut or as a second-class citizen if you don't actually believe in that as a concept in the first place.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

What you believe or not won't stop them harassing you as you walk by, or sexually assaulting you.

[Jijhebtseksmetezels]

Feminists aren't perfect and they make unfeminist choices, they're still feminists.

Totally agree. I think feminists are far less judgemental than people think they are.

We live in an imperfect society and make our way as best we can. I would never judge an individual woman for wearing niqab/shaving legs/wearing high heels/sending her DD off to FGM. Enthusiastically or not.

Hell I don't even blame men who don't see it.

It's the system I judge. The system that gives us these loaded choices.

[whoputthecatout]

I would honestly find it difficult (no, impossible) to be a feminist if I were religious. I believe organised religion and feminism are essentially incompatible.

This is because I believe that no man has the right to tell any woman how she should act, what she should wear, what rules she should follow etc., simply on the basis that he is male. That is a sense of unearned entitlement too far.

For example, it is purely semantics to debate whether " to beat" means "to beat" or something else because the real issue is the assumption that the male has the right to be in charge of the female.
All main stream religions come back to the belief to a greater or lesser degree. Why? Because when these religions were invented the males set the rules and they set them to advantage themselves. There is no logical or rational reason behind this - it is power politics.

This isn't personal OP but in general to claim to be a feminist and to be religious requires a certain degree of cognitive dissonance IMO.

[Drupie]

Princess
Can't you see how there is no equality between men and women in Islam? Why don't men cover heir hair "to be judged on their words and actions alone"? Why do women need "protecting"- (IE controlled), instead of focussing on protecting women, can't we focus on controlling dangerous men who are complicit in harming women?

Women should not be controlled and minimised in order to live a safe life.

[Six6]

That's true. Men can make you feel scared of course and obviously physical assault is another matter entirely. I was responding to the pp's comment about Muslim men's perceptions.

[ThatsWotSheSaid]

In Islam, women automatically loose custody of children above 7 (boys) and 9 (girls) to her husband. If the said husband dies the children are given to their paternal grandfather and uncles. Don't you think it's unjust? This creates a situation where women don't get divorce because they know they'd loose their kids.
^

[Drupie]

I want to add of course I believe in a woman's free choice to wear whatever she wants, whatever religion she practices. If that's the hijab so be it. But no specific clothing should need to be worn to make a woman feel more safe. If men were doing the same I'd have no problem with it. But essentially it boils down to avoiding sexual violence and that's what bothers me.

[whoputthecatout]

f men were doing the same I'd have no problem with it

This. If men had to wear the same apparel as women in the extreme case of niqab, burka etc. you can bet your boots the rules would change overnight.

[QuentinSummers]

My issue with "dressing modestly" is its a slippery downward slope to being completely covered, like wearing a burka.
It's entirely subjective. If knee length skirts are acceptable, 1 inch above is immodest. Women start wearing longer skirts so as not to risk being immodest. Then knee length skirts become immodest, as most women wear mid calf. Eventually ankles are risqué. The only way this ends is with full body covering.
Nothing is immodest. Bodies aren't shameful. Men need to stop seeing the coveted bits of women as sexual.
There is no "natural" way to be covered. In Tanzania, it's totally normal for women to be fully top less but ano leg above the ankle showing is scandalous.
As soon as you buy into wearing the hijab "for modesty" you buy into policing women's bodies. Not ok. (Wearing the hijab for cultural/personal reasons is fine but as others have said, it's like leg shaving and socialised to be "normal" rather than having any practical purpose)

[QuentinSummers]

*covered bits of bodies

[StatelessPrincess]

Drupie I don't see it like that , I've said before I do not believe men and women are the same but this does not mean that I think one is better than the other. And I absolutely do think that dangerous men should be controlled! I don't believe there is any justification for men harming women, in Islam or outside it.

I might fall asleep soon so incase I do I just want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread and answered my questions, some things I've agreed with, some I haven't, but it's given me lots to think about and look into. Does anyone have any books or articles/websites/youtubers they would recommend I read or watch? I'm currently recovering from an operation and have a lot of time on my hands, so I'm trying to use it constructively!

[ISaySteadyOn]

Not to do with religion, but I found Vanessa Olorenshaw's Liberating Motherhood an interesting read.

[Jijhebtseksmetezels]

Stateless you are very noble! I'd be mainlining Netflix if I were you

Have you read The Handmaid's Tale? Then you could watch the series and chat on the thread That's about the thick end of the wedge and pretty thought-provoking.

[bambambini]

It's commonly held view that Muslim men and women view western women who don't wear the hijab as sluts

That's not my experience and I have met lots of Muslim men. Having been married to one for years I spent a lot of time with him and his friends and was rarely treated with anything other than total respect. I would have long and involved conversations with Muslim men about all sorts and they certainly didn't disdain me or consider me a slut. Nor did my husband!
No doubt there are schools of thought that women who dress less than modestly are immoral but it's not a widespread belief as you seem to think.

All I know is that i've travelled in countries (where the dominant religion is muslim) as a young woman without a male and the sexual assault and harassment was at a ridiculous level.

[eurochick]

I think some feminists struggle with the hijab because it is women changing their behaviour to "cure" the problem behaviour of men. Why can't men deal with their own behaviour?

[NoLoveofMine]

Some horribly Islamophobic messages on this thread. I'm shocked.

[MercuryMadness]

Noloveofmine
No need for the pearl clutching about islamophobia.

The remarks on this thread are about a religion in the context of feminism. Post about other religions and feminism and you will doubtless get similar analysis and criticism. Feminists tend to be critical thinkers. We are not restricting our remarks to Islam, so relax.

[MorrisZapp]

I can't think of any major world religion which doesn't preach patriarchy, least of all Islam.

[MercuryMadness]

Agreed, Morris.

Some women prefer the patriarchy.

[VestalVirgin]

I can't think of any major world religion which doesn't preach patriarchy, least of all Islam.

Yeah. I know Christian feminists, but they get by by picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they consider the word of god, and which not.

This is possible because the Bible is a collection of texts, and it is not wholly impossible to question the authorship.

A holy book that is allegedly the word of god as dictated by an angel ... it is a lot harder to ignore bits of that; I'd imagine.