Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

[CheeseBubbles]

I see it said a lot and I'm not convinced. If rape is solely about power there's no point teaching men about consent is there? If anything they might use the knowledge to better abuse their victims. Isn't it possible that for some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking. On the relationship board you'll see men who try it on nicely at first and then move on to coercion which makes me think again that this is just sex for them because they'd happily get it the easy way if possible. I don't know if it really makes a difference but I worry that if we assign this one motivation to it we draw a line that doesn't really need to be there and maybe make men who used garden variety coercion or a really drunk woman to think they didn't actually rape, because for them it wasn't a power trip.

Entitlement IS power.

It doesn't have to be some angry, alpha male or chest beating fucker.

I just think saying "rape is about sex" is potentially very damaging and reduces the crime from the violent act it is. I personally don't think it's helpful and think it regresses back to an attitude of "oh, he just wanted sex".

Sorry about your experiences Scrumplestiltskin and I hope you're doing alright.

"That's the power! Right there."

Which facilitates it. Not which motivates it.

It's like the difference between a serial killer who gets off on killing, and a murderer who kills for a practical reason that benefits them.

In both cases the murder is equally bad, but the motivations are different.

No, more the 2000s teenager who thinks her boyfriend is entitled to anal sex, whether she likes it or not.

Definitely a very real issue. The boyfriend I think enjoys this power to demand it of his girlfriend in this situation.

You sound like a transactivist saying "trans women are women," over and over again with utterly no evidence or reasoning behind the mantra, NoLove

I've only just seen this. I have no evidence for saying rape isn't sex? Saying rape isn't sex makes me akin to a trans activist? Right.

"I just think saying "rape is about sex" is potentially very damaging and reduces the crime from the violent act it is. I personally don't think it's helpful and think it regresses back to an attitude of "oh, he just wanted sex"."

But I'm not saying that. At all. Just that the potential sexual motivation needs to be acknowledged. And who cares if the reasoning is "he just wanted sex"? The whole point should be that "just wanting sex" is not a good enough reason to violate someone else's autonomy. We shouldn't have to paint rapists as power-hungry, othered monsters to recognise that rape is an awful, devastating crime.

Honestly Scrumplestiltskin

I know you're trying to make sense of what happened to you. But this

He simply truly believed that one half of a couple should be available for sex whenever the other half felt the urge.

Is all about power. Demanding sex isn't the same as a row over who makes the bed. The act itself is one of vulnerability and trust.

"Definitely a very real issue. The boyfriend I think enjoys this power to demand it of his girlfriend in this situation."

You think. You think, but you don't know. That's just your opinion. And ime, that's not the case.

What is rape, then, NoLove? Is it not the same physical act as sexual intercourse?

The whole point should be that "just wanting sex" is not a good enough reason to violate someone else's autonomy. We shouldn't have to paint rapists as power-hungry, othered monsters to recognise that rape is an awful, devastating crime.

No-one on this thread disagrees with that I wouldn't have thought, nor has anyone said anything to the contrary.

"I know you're trying to make sense of what happened to you."

Not at all. I'm long past what happened to me, and the rapes which were about sex, not power, were by far the least damaging sexual assaults and rapes I've suffered in my youth.

"Demanding sex isn't the same as a row over who makes the bed."

But what if that is exactly the way the rapist sees it? And he would think it fair if you demanded sex from him when he wasn't in the mood?

You think. You think, but you don't know. That's just your opinion. And ime, that's not the case.

Well I know girls who've been in that situation, but alright.

I'm not sure why you're asking me what rape is and trying to link it to standard sexual intercourse.

"That's the power! Right there."

Which facilitates it.

I'm not at all sure you can get into his head enough to know. If power facilitates the satisfaction, then to me, it has to seem like a positive, for him.

Unless his need for sex is so overpowering that he is willing to have a very negative element to it, every time it does it.

Which, I don't think you can reconcile with him feeling 'entitled'.

If he feels entitled and thinks he can demand sex, I would be very surprised if he was willing to put up with feeling a little bit bad about himself, every time he did it!

"I'm not sure why you're asking me what rape is and trying to link it to standard sexual intercourse."

Because you keep insisting that rape is not the act of sexual intercourse? And are unable to explain why it is not?

"I'm not at all sure you can get into his head enough to know."

And yet you claim you can?

Scrumplestiltskin

But what if that is exactly the way the rapist sees it? And he would think it fair if you demanded sex from him when he wasn't in the mood?

Again, that is not the definition of entitled, is it? If he feels entitled enough to have sex with you whenever he likes, he's hardly going to become the opposite of that when you want sex he doesn't. I should imagine it's far more likely that he wants sex all the time and has gaslighted you into thinking you can demand it when he doesn't want it.

Right I'm out. Being compared to a trans activist in this context is either trolling or offensive and I can't be arsed with it today

"Right I'm out. Being compared to a trans activist in this context is either trolling or offensive and I can't be arsed with it today"

Repeating "rape is not sex" over and over, without providing any reason as to why rape is not "literally non-consenting sex" is exactly what transactivists do when they say "trans women are women".

'It's like the difference between a serial killer who gets off on killing, and a murderer who kills for a practical reason that benefits them.'

So in this scenario, say my children are going to starve to death, unless I murder someone. So I carry out the murder (hating every moment of having to do it, because how terrible for the victim) and attempt to forget with the benefit of feeding my victim. As compared to the serial killer who enjoys the murder itself.

How is this comparable to sex and rape? A rapist enjoys raping people. There isn't some benefit they get that is entirely separate from the act of raping, in the way that there is with murder.

I don't understand this compartmentalisation, where someone's physical enjoyment of an act can be completely decoupled from the wellbeing of the other person. If someone enjoys sexual acts in such conditions, holding power has become so intertwined with their sexuality that sex is always about power for them, whether they are raping someone or not.

I'm starting to feel similarly Quentin (on the offensive side). I feel all other opinions and experiences are being dismissed and this demanding of me to explain why rape isn't sex is ridiculous.

'forget with the benefit of feeding my victim.'

Children, not victim.

"Again, that is not the definition of entitled, is it?"

In that case, it was that he felt people in a relationship were entitled to sex when they felt in the mood, and the other person was obliged to go along with it. So it is entitled.

"this demanding of me to explain why rape isn't sex is ridiculous."

I said it was, and why. You said it wasn't, but didn't say why. So I'm asking why. And you are repeatedly refusing to answer.

You'd have to ask the rapists what their motivations are.
My guess is many of them are too dim to actually be able to articulate what they were thinking.

People shouldn't rape others regardless of the motivation.

I feel it's other people that are behaving like transactivists. I have personally made my view clear and that it is Scrumple's position that I consider the harmful one. Rape is fundamentally an act of power over another person and this fact should never be left out of any programme to educate men and boys about sexual consent.

Entitlement is absolutely about power.

Also this line

You think. You think, but you don't know. That's just your opinion. And ime, that's not the case.

On the example you gave about a teenage girl and her boyfriend is quite vexing. My opinion is irrelevant, yours takes precedence over all.