just got my comment deleted on the Guardian website

[dangermouseisace]

silly students protesting against Jenni Murray.

All I did was point out, when someone asked how our sex was being erased, that trans women offend with similar patterns to men, and concerns about recent trans women rapists, also violent trans women being housed in female prisons. I said that if these crimes are recorded as female it reduces the argument for separate safe spaces for women.

I also said about sports, and trans women being accepted onto female teams, and funnily enough being better than actual women, and advised people look up the Iran womens football team.

What did I do that was so wrong???

Beyonduser I don't know what's so funny about the fact I've been posting for a few years on and off? I was under the impression some people have been posting for donkeys years.

I can't remember what my first user name was because it was a while ago and I didn't use MN that often. I've done an advanced search on 'a living wage for mothers and other carers' and can't find the thread anywhere - but I know I posted it because I remeber talking about it at the centre where I work and someone suggested I posted it here to see what other mothers and carers thought of it. If I remember, it only got a handful of replies. If anyone's interested (not trying to derail this thread) this is the link to an article in the Camden New Journal about the petition:

archive.camdennewjournal.com/forum-we-need-living-wage-all-mothers-and-other-carers

And a llink to 2 other threads I started about mothers/children/domestic violence. They may not have been in feminist chat - when I was new to MN I wasn't sure where to post what.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2649878-children-and-domestic-violence

www.mumsnet.com/info/search?q=citizensmith%60

The point I was trying to make is that there are so many other things affecting women and mothers and yet MN seems to be more focused on trans issues than anything else. That wasn't meant to derail, it was meant to show that the issues of austerity and violence will affect more of us in our day to day lives than trans men and women and which toilets we pee in. In my opinion.

I have known 2 trans people IRL, one trans man and one trans woman. I don't think most people would have known they had transitioned. Both just want to live their lives in peace. As there are in all walks of life, some trans people will be completely offensive, just like some men will me mebers of F4J, some people will be members of Britain First and the EDL. I've always tried to live my life by the saying never punish the majority for the crimes of the few.

There is a lot of discussion around trans because laws, policies and guidelines are being changed in ways that adversely affect women and endanger children's health, HoldBack, and it goes way way beyond what toilet people use.

Lots of us know perfectly nice trans people. Some of us have also had the misfortune to encounter some really quite terrifying trans people as well, but that is by the by, this is not about individuals.

You bring up the issues of austerity and violence. You are correct these are very important issues for women (why not start a new thread or two to discuss them, instead of telling us off for discussing what we want to discuss?)

• how can we measure the disproportionate effect of austerity on women if we no longer have a definition of 'woman'?

• how can we keep safe women who are escaping DV if we can't keep men out of women's shelters?

You say it is wrong to punish the majority for the crimes of the few. I would agree, however until the majority of trans people stand up to the few transactivists and say 'not in our name', laws, guidelines and policies will continue to be changed in line with the transactivists' agenda, to the detriment of women and children.

Saying a man cannot become a woman is not punishing them, it's stating a fact. Being male is not shameful and the words 'man' and 'male' are not insults. Keeping male people out of female spaces is not a punishment, it's a measure to keep women safe(r).

I think the difference between men who join the EDL or F4J is that they aren't taken seriously and they have no effect on government policy. TRAs might be a minority, but they are taken seriously and they are having an effect on policy. And often the changes they are calling for are to the detriment of women. Ironically, they are also damaging to the 'traditional' transsexuals, who seem to be thrown under a bus along with women. TRAs are just MRA's trying a different tack and being far more effective, in my opinion.

Perhaps the threads you are thinking of were in chat so have been deleted? But sometimes people don't take an interest in something you post - it happens, it's a busy forum. Don't take it so personally.

What's funny is you saying that you have started posts on FWR and they weren't a success - yet apparently it was over four years ago you were using that name at all, so these unsuccessful threads clearly aren't a recent thing.

Then, apparently FWR posters are mean to you because you aren't a "mn feminist" whose only subject is trans. Yet at the time you were using the name you thought it was, there isn't one trans thread on the page!

I'm not going to bother explaining why it is such a big issue at the moment as 1) others above already have and 2) I doubt you care if you are just here to argue with the meany mn feminists.

I don't take it personally - but exactly - people don't take an interest because they're too consumed hyperventilating about trans issues. I don't remember ever seeing a thread about poverty on MN feminist board - perhaps there have been and I've missed them, but if there have been some they are far outweighed by this kind of thread.

I've not complained that people on MN have been mean to me - it doesn't upset me when people are rude or patronising on the net but it does make me angry when someone like vanilla comes on with a different view and she's shouted down and belittled.

Perhaps a few years ago there were less threads about trans issues but you can't deny that if you come to the feminist chat board 9 times out of 10 it's the only thing people have written about. Sadly it seems to me only so the anti trans clique can agree and rant about trans women being men with dicks, highlighting the few trans people who are agitators (conveniently ignoring the trans men and women who want to live in peace, but apparantly it's their fault trans agitators exisit because they don't call them out! As if they haven't been through enough already. And I doubt many would be welcomed by this board anyway)

Honestly if there are any valid points worth debating or talking about on the trans issue on the MN feminist board they are lost in the midst of hostile, patronising and agressive responses and replies, so no wonder you all agree with yourselves because anyone trying to show a different perspective is like a lamb to the slaughter.

It really makes horrible reading and so many here come across as really narrow minded, hostile and unpleasant.

So if you are concerned about poverty and someone claimed that the statistics that you have seen and know exactly what they include are incorrect and actually there is no poverty anyway, you wouldn't tell them they are wrong?

People are not hounding vanilla, they are disagreeing en masse.

Perhaps a few years ago there were less threads about trans issues but you can't deny that if you come to the feminist chat board 9 times out of 10 it's the only thing people have written about.

Blatant, obvious untruth, showing weird bias - trans threads are outnumbered 2 to 1 on the main chat page right now (and that's by including 'Gender Neutral Toilets' as a trans thing, rather than something else, because I'm sure that TAs were mentioned)

Sadly it seems to me only so the anti trans clique can agree and rant about trans women being men with dicks

Terrible mis-representation. Worried about women as a class being erased, by loss of privacy, by online bullying and medicalisation of children are just some of the subjects. 'ranting about penises' not so much.

You're right, they are disagreeing en masse but I think some of the comments are agressive and bullish, and although many on MN are, they seem to be more so on this issue.

Re the trans issue - I agree that there are people who are trans who are appalling. But I don't agree that there are as many as is mentioned on here. Like I said before there are sub groups of people in all walks of life who are all about creating hatred and divide, and they don't do their cause any good. But I still think they are in the minority.

Re the trans issue - I agree that there are people who are trans who are appalling. But I don't agree that there are as many as is mentioned on here. Like I said before there are sub groups of people in all walks of life who are all about creating hatred and divide, and they don't do their cause any good. But I still think they are in the minority.

But this isn't about individuals - this is about public policy - that, if TAs get their way, women (and men actually, but they are less worried about it, because it's less scary for them) lose their right to women only space. If TAs get their way, any man can go into any woman's space, and if the women kick them out, they are the ones in trouble with the law. That man doesn't have to do anything, they can just say that right now, for that 5 minutes, they identify as a woman.

That is a huge thing, that feminists are quite right to be up in arms over.

And like I said, other appalling people are not getting to influence government policy. That is a pretty crucial difference. If TRAs just acted obnoxiously and were considered ridiculous they would be annoying but not a problem. However, TRAs have contributed to and, in some parts of the world, brought about changes in law that have been detrimental to women and girls.

And there are plenty of well frequented threads about poverty on here. The MN goat came about as a reaction to them.

Holdback my comment up thread was erroneously addressed to beyond but it was meant for you. Also, you say:
Re the trans issue - I agree that there are people who are trans who are appalling. But I don't agree that there are as many as is mentioned on here.
This to me suggests that you have never taken a woman-centred gender-critical stance online or irl before, because you get so much crap for it - the no-platforming is real, people are not making it up. And although I would agree that there probably are hardly any genuinely dysphoric homosexual 'transsexuals' out there, there are huge numbers of heterosexual genderqueer couples climing to be lesbians (for example) or AGPs, all behaving like rabid loonies online, trying to close down discussion whilst campaigning to effectively end all women's rights based on sex as a protected characteristic.
All I can say holdback is that if you have never been drowned in that bullshit tsunami before, you have no business minimising what you think it might be like for others who have faced it. In other words you are in ignorant bliss 'let them eat cake'...

hold

I believe, statistically there are actually far fewer homosexual transsexuals than there are gynephilic transwoman (think how many gay people there are as opposed to straight, the gay people are in the minority). But let's say I'm wrong and the former outnumber the latter.

The homosexual transsexuals are not the problem. Although they adhere to an ideology I disagree with, they are non-predatory, non-aggressive and don't have a fetish.

Neither are they the ones who are compaigning. They will often say, yes I'm a man, I just identify a woman. The don't insist they are women.

The autogynephiles who insist they are women and are campaigning for access, run to tens of thousands.

It's really not about a few bad apples ruining it for a multitude of harmless transsexuals.

It's about a significant number of men campaigning to have a fetish legitimised and using transsexuality as a means of doing it.

If I, a normal middle of the road woman, suddenly said I identify as a man, I am very attracted to men and that makes me a gay man, you would think I had taken leave of my senses.

Surely you wouldn't start compaigning with me to give me rights to endorse that viewpoint.

hold, there are so many trans threads on FWR at the moment because legal changes are afoot. If you are not aware of these, you should find out what they are. Fundamentally, feminism will mean nothing if the word 'woman' can mean whatever someone says it means. Even the crime statistics will end up skewed.

You strike me, from your posts, as a fairly reasonable person. You're not being sanctimonious, and you haven't come onto the thread and bawled 'BIGOTS' and run off. You're engaging in the discussion. I'm not trying to shout you down, and I'm sure other posters aren't, either.

Just to take this back to the issue of comments being deleted in the Guardian, it seems that the Telegraph will allow more discussion. Lots of comments here that would have been deleted from the Guardian.
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/13/schools-told-should-give-transgender-pupils-cake-tocelebrate/#comments

The trouble with that Roquefort is that a lot of those comments seem to come from people who genuinely are bigoted - the kind who are glibly unaware (or smugly aware) of their own privileged status in society and couldn't give a toss about how hard it is for some people.

I don't want to be lumped in with them. I do care about prejudice and discrimination and my take on the trans issue is very different from theirs. This is what's pissing me off so much about the whole thing.

I have no common ground, socially or politically, with the average Torygraph reader - the problem is that the people I should have common cause with are the ones refusing to allow any dissenting voices from what has been deemed the acceptable liberal viewpoint. And in so doing, paradoxically supporting a profoundly regressive movement.

I am not opposing transactivist ideology from a place of privilege, as the TRAs try to make out. I am opposing it from the POV of being myself part of a group that is still discriminated against and oppressed and denied full humanity in this society, and finding my rights and safety as a part of that group under threat as a result of the TRA agenda.

Going on those comments, the average Telegraph reader could no more give a shit about me and the inequalities I've experienced than they could about gay rights or trans rights or any other rights. They are old fashioned, obvious regressives, in contrast to the new, covert TRA/TRA-ally regressives.

I take your point that at least they're allowing the discussion, which is good - but it's not a very uplifting or enlightened level of discussion, bar the few comments from the obvious feminist infiltrators! And IMO it tends to reinforce the fallacy that all opposition to transactivist ideology comes from a place of bigotry and privilege.

TalkingintheDark My point was that the discussion was actually being allowed without Guardian-style censorship. I admit I only skimmed the comments before posting, and saw a few reasonable comments, but you're right, the general level of discussion is poor.

Yes I did realise that as I said in my last para. It's just so depressing that the only places they allow free discussion (apart from on here) tend to be populated by ignorant fuckers who really don't give a shit about equality of any kind or the rights of any minorities/vulnerable groups. There's a huge irony there somewhere. I think...

Yes, the left does seem to have got itself into some sort of totalitarian ban-everything-you-don't-agree-with mindset. They somehow think they're being progressive by banning what they see as bigotry, but because they don't listen to the opposing arguments, they become the bigots.

Yes, exactly.

I completely agree. I just hope they sort it out before June 8th

Oh, I've given up on left and right. I intend to go on an issue by issue basis. I believe in compassion and my compassion makes me furious that young people are being drugged and mutilated.