just got my comment deleted on the Guardian website

[dangermouseisace]

silly students protesting against Jenni Murray.

All I did was point out, when someone asked how our sex was being erased, that trans women offend with similar patterns to men, and concerns about recent trans women rapists, also violent trans women being housed in female prisons. I said that if these crimes are recorded as female it reduces the argument for separate safe spaces for women.

I also said about sports, and trans women being accepted onto female teams, and funnily enough being better than actual women, and advised people look up the Iran womens football team.

What did I do that was so wrong???

I feel so conflicted about this, I've met quite a few trans women and they are lovely pp, not the sort to go into women's toilets to assault women, and actually have the utmost respect for women, and have also lost a lot in their personal lives to become women. I don't recognise the Trans activists in the pp I know myself. I don't think the noisy activists are actually helping the cause of the majority of trans pp who just want to get on and quietly live their lives.

Someone wanting to quietly get on with their lives is not going to do much damage to anyone else and should be left alone to live in peace. But the idiots who are demanding that women be known as "not men", and claim to have had literal violence committed against them if they hear women talk about having a period or giving birth, or insist that they fucking menustrate too (!) or feel proud of their lady dicks
they need to be stopped in their tracks before any more damage is done.

Thank you for this thread. I tried to,log on to comment but comments were closed. Looks as if they have closed comments within the day. Is that normal for guardian comments?

Well yes, you were 'assigned' a gender. Gender is a social construct that is 'assigned'- sex organs can be 'recognised' anatomically but gender status can be changed when the infant grows up and can declare their own gender, as is legal in this country- and hence re-assigned.

Post-mortem brain examination of individuals who identified as a gender other than that assigned at birth- do show that their brains are more similar to those of the gender they felt more comfortable within.

The experience of people who are intersex- no doubt, another horrifically difficult experience for most individuals within this category- doesn't take away from the fact that transgenderism is also very real. You can look up many alternative websites, many from more reputable sources than that identified- that testify that. It is not helpful for any group to try to invalidate another's experiences. Just because people are intersex does not mean that other people are not transgender. Both exist, just like people with cystic fibrosis not any less important due to the other people having asthma, for example.

It's a wonderful thing that we live in a country where people with gender re-assignment have legal rights and recognition. Yet stigma still exists very commonly. So much so that is is actually feels acceptable - discussions on Mumsnet are a prime example of this. In the not so distant past, other groups were also targeted in this way- which now rightly seems unthinkable. People who are homosexual, people with black skin. People who are transgender have a much higher rate of completed suicide- and the attitudes of many within society are very much related to this.

Were you assigned the wrong gender, Vanilla?

Can you show me where you got those suicide stats from vanilla? Because I thought straight white men were the group most likely to commit suicide.

Incidentally, I wasn't. Maybe someone will come along who is, if there were particular questions you wished to ask that made this a relevant question.

I've worked with people quite extensively in my area of work who are transgender. I feel informed by that and a general interest in the topic.

Off hand...www.stonewall.org.uk/media/lgbt-facts-and-figures

48% have attempted suicide (first reputable link that came up in Google!). It's well known, however. The rate for straight white men is very very significantly smaller (or mental health services would be even greater crisis than they are, can you imagine!)

Is there a chicken and egg situation regarding the fact that 48% have identifiable mental health problems?

You said 'much higher rate of completed suicide' which is t what that link says. Cam you actually back that assertion up?

"Well yes, you were 'assigned' a gender."
I said I was recognised as female. 'Female' is not a gender, it is a sex.

It's impossible to tell if anything is 'chicken and egg' that you can't test by randomised experimental tests. And it's impossibly unethical to 'allocate' babies to genders at birth on a random basis to test this, rather than by their anatomically recognised genders.

The 48% relates to those who have attempted suicide though- not those with an identifiable mental health difficulty. The 48% can include other reasons, including social stressors including the effects of stigma. And stigma itself can also contribute massively to mental health disorders developing, also.

'Female' is both a gender role and a sexual identification of anatomical organs.

Mentally well adjusted people do not attempt suicide, ergo they do have mental health issues. 48% is a fairly significant number, and that doesn't include anyone who hasn't brought themselves to the attention of MH professionals.
Trying to attribute the majority of it to "stigma" is extremely facile.

"'Female' is both a gender role and a sexual identification of anatomical organs."
Incorrect.

Many people without a mental health disorder die by suicide unfortunately. This can be a triggering topic obviously- but any crisis day to day, or situational stressor can cause someone without a mental health disorder to die by suicide. Obviously mental health disorders are a strong risk factor for death by suicide also, however.

The stigma surrounding those who are transgender is horrifically generalised, as evidenced in this thread alone. Stigma still exists amongst healthcare professionals also- or stigma can be perceived to exist, as it is so widespread also. Stigma also exists in people who are being transgender being more likely to be ostracised from their families, to have difficulties finding employment- all of this also contributes to their risk of suicide via stigma. Nevermind the number of folk who can't disclose their gender preferences due to stigma- it is horrifying.

I actually had a look at rates of completed suicide for people who are transgender and they don't actually exist in the UK. Probably because gender re-assignment is not noted on death certificates I expect. But it's reasonable to expect that almost half of such individuals having attempted suicide has a significant effect on the rate of completed suicide unfortunately.

Bollocks. "Stigma" is not a disease, and mentally well people do not attempt suicide.

Well yes, you were 'assigned' a gender. Gender is a social construct that is 'assigned'- sex organs can be 'recognised' anatomically but gender status can be changed when the infant grows up and can declare their own gender, as is legal in this country- and hence re-assigned.

I'd be interested to see some evidence that the sex noted at births is actually held to be a provisional gender, hence being able to legally change the 'gender' (in inverted commas, since this is often a choice of male/female and thus sex but by a name that doesn't make schoolboys giggle) stated in passports and the like later on. This sounds very much like some form of fallacious post hoc reasoning to me.

I rather suspect that it was decided that 'gender' could be changed in documents for entirely different reasons to those you claim (i.e. someone, somewhere decided it was pragmatic to introduce the option).

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/overview

Stigma isn't a disease at all. Though it can affect peoples lives to a greater extent than diseases.

People who have not had a mental health diagnosis do end their lives by suicide unfortunately. Examples are the end of a relationship, a financial crisis, the loss of a loved one, a chronic illness, family breakdown, unemployment. Help is available for the people to prevent this- contacts such as the Samaritans, their GP etc. But it does happen, despite this. Some of these people may have an undiagnosed mental health illness but others may not. Why especially for people at higher risk of suicide as well as people in general, we need to reduce this risk. Acceptance and kindness regarding people's preferred gender is one way of doing this.

Not all mentally unwell people have a diagnosis

As stated above, Flogging. Wholeheartedly agree.

Agree with what? I've just disagreed with you. This is getting too surreal for this time of the morning; sleep tight.

I completely accept people's preferred gender stereotype, although often i can't understand it. Men should feel free to wear make up and simper, and women should feel free to strut around with a beer and steel caps.

My problem is when i am told that these are intrinsic aspects of a person's sex.

What you are saying is that a man who likes femininity has a brain like a female. Is that a female of the simpering type or the beer drinking type?

Similarly!

Agreed that not all mentally unwell people have a diagnosis of such. 'Some of these may have an undiagnosed mental illness but other's may not'

It's the time of the night! :)